John Patton Corner

[Eric]

Michael Cuscuna's dismissive comments about this on the Mosaic box are quite wrong. Patton's complete BN output should have been on a proper sized box. But I always think he doesn't have much of a feel for Soul Jazz. He's only ever produced two great Soul Jazz albums in his life, and they must have been accidents.

MG

Just out of curiousity, what are they?

Edited March 24, 2006 by Eric

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Michael Cuscuna's dismissive comments about this on the Mosaic box are quite wrong. Patton's complete BN output should have been on a proper sized box. But I always think he doesn't have much of a feel for Soul Jazz. He's only ever produced two great Soul Jazz albums in his life, and they must have been accidents.

MG

Just out of curiousity, what are they?

"It was finally released in 1986, but Blue Note was right; it didn't measure up to what are now known as Patton's first three alums."

Or, did you mean the two great Soul Jazz albums? They were "Teasin'" by Cornell Dupree and "Birth sign" by George Freeman. And MC was only one of two producers on the Dupree; the co-producer was Mark Meyerson.

MG

[Eric]

Michael Cuscuna's dismissive comments about this on the Mosaic box are quite wrong. Patton's complete BN output should have been on a proper sized box. But I always think he doesn't have much of a feel for Soul Jazz. He's only ever produced two great Soul Jazz albums in his life, and they must have been accidents.

MG

Just out of curiousity, what are they?

"It was finally released in 1986, but Blue Note was right; it didn't measure up to what are now known as Patton's first three alums."

Or, did you mean the two great Soul Jazz albums? They were "Teasin'" by Cornell Dupree and "Birth sign" by George Freeman. And MC was only one of two producers on the Dupree; the co-producer was Mark Meyerson.

MG

Sorry, the second part of your answer is what I was looking for. I never realized he did "Birth Sign" - that is one cool record

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Michael Cuscuna's dismissive comments about this on the Mosaic box are quite wrong. Patton's complete BN output should have been on a proper sized box. But I always think he doesn't have much of a feel for Soul Jazz. He's only ever produced two great Soul Jazz albums in his life, and they must have been accidents.

MG

Just out of curiousity, what are they?

"It was finally released in 1986, but Blue Note was right; it didn't measure up to what are now known as Patton's first three alums."

Or, did you mean the two great Soul Jazz albums? They were "Teasin'" by Cornell Dupree and "Birth sign" by George Freeman. And MC was only one of two producers on the Dupree; the co-producer was Mark Meyerson.

MG

Sorry, the second part of your answer is what I was looking for. I never realized he did "Birth Sign" - that is one cool record

George is totally wonderful.

MG

[JSngry]

Does anybody have the Patton BN Comp "The Organization"? It's a UK only release, per allmusic.

I've got all of his BN leader recordings (and alot, if not most of his BN sideman stuff), but this compilation still catches my eye for some reason. I still need to track down his two DIW releases, and eventually the Nilva (hoping that gets a CD issue someday).

I've got that. It's nice, but doesn't contain any new music.

"Footprints" was new at the time. Of course, it's since been reissued.

And somebody who's in touch w/Alvin Queen tells me that he (Queen) is in no hurry to reissue Nilva LPs on CD. That's a bummer.

Edited March 25, 2006 by JSngry

[sidewinder]

Does anybody have the Patton BN Comp "The Organization"? It's a UK only release, per allmusic.

I've got all of his BN leader recordings (and alot, if not most of his BN sideman stuff), but this compilation still catches my eye for some reason. I still need to track down his two DIW releases, and eventually the Nilva (hoping that gets a CD issue someday).

I've also got this one on CD. Good stuff, for a compilation. Also issued on vinyl too (they did a similar compilation for Grant Green).

[Soul Stream]

Memphis To New York Spirit is EVERY bit as good (maybe better?) than Accent On The Blues imho.

Also, Patton had no feel for Soul Jazz? Hell, he was one of the founders.

Every recording John Patton did on Blue Note was a masterpiece. Each was individual. No organist had more growth and diversity on record over a 8 year period than Patton did during his Blue Note tenure.

Personally, I think Memphis To New York Spirit is perhaps the best record he ever did in many ways. However, I refuse to compare his output to itself since each recording is part of a career that is one of the greatest in organ history.

Patton still doesn't get the respect he deserves. His recordings haven't been dissected as have Young's or JOS by most people. I have, in my own small way, dissected and analyzed his recordings and always find them stylistically some of the most difficult jazz organ recordings ever made.

[JSngry]

Patton still doesn't get the respect he deserves. His recordings haven't been dissected as have Young's or JOS by most people. I have, in my own small way, dissected and analyzed his recordings and always find them stylistically some of the most difficult jazz organ recordings ever made.

Funny you should use the word "difficult". I remember, back in my college days when I was just discovering Patton, thinking at first that he was a simplistic organist with a good groove. Then one night, it hit me - the individual components of what he was doing were relatively simple, but how they all fit together, not just on his instrument, but with the entire group, especially with the drummer, were actually pretty darn involved. Not obviously "intricate" necessarily, but in no way simplistic. There was a lot of thought going on, and more importantly, an overriding vision to how the the totality of the music was going to sound. The degree of specificity involved was (and remains) pretty amazing.

That's the kind of music I really dig, regardless of "genre" - they type where everything that everybody plays is exactly what it needs to be to create a specific final result. No wasted motions or grandiose "gesturing". Just make a point that's as direct as it can possibly be. That's not a function of "style" or "technique" either, because I've heard highly specific music that is alos very "busy". What it is a function of is clarity of vision, and John Patton certainly had that in abundance.

To that end, the Nilva side, where he hooked up with another master of specificity, Grachan Moncur III, was a match made in heaven!

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Also, Patton had no feel for Soul Jazz? Hell, he was one of the founders.

Hey, I never said that! I said that Michael Cuscuna didn't have much of a feel for Soul Jazz.

I would NEVER say that about BJP!

MG

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Does anybody have the Patton BN Comp "The Organization"? It's a UK only release, per allmusic.

I've got all of his BN leader recordings (and alot, if not most of his BN sideman stuff), but this compilation still catches my eye for some reason. I still need to track down his two DIW releases, and eventually the Nilva (hoping that gets a CD issue someday).

I've also got this one on CD. Good stuff, for a compilation. Also issued on vinyl too (they did a similar compilation for Grant Green).

Only the vinyl version of the compilation had 6 previously unissued (at the time) cuts from the MTYNS and Boogaloo and "Dragon slayer" sessions, which made the vinyl version THE one to buy. But it's redundant now, of course.

MG

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

And somebody who's in touch w/Alvin Queen tells me that he (Queen) is in no hurry to reissue Nilva LPs on CD. That's a bummer.

Total BUMMER! Alvin has allowed M&I records in Japan to reissue most of the two albums he made with Junior Mance; "The tender touch" and "Glidin' and stridin'". Maybe we should write to M&I records... Trouble is, there's no address on any of the M&I CDs I've got, nor website, nor e-mail address (unless they're in Japanese).

MG

[Jim Alfredson]

To that end, the Nilva side, where he hooked up with another master of specificity, Grachan Moncur III, was a match made in heaven!

I gotta find a copy of that.

[Soul Stream]

I gotta find a copy of that.

Check this Jim....

Ebay Listing

Also, if you can find it....Check out the 2 Jimmy Ponder Muse LPs Patton plays on from the late 80's. GREAT stuff. If you don't think Patton can play listen to their Latin version of "You Stepped Out Of A Dream" from Jimmy Poner's JUMP on Muse.

Edited March 25, 2006 by Soul Stream

[Soul Stream]

Also, Patton had no feel for Soul Jazz? Hell, he was one of the founders.

Hey, I never said that! I said that Michael Cuscuna didn't have much of a feel for Soul Jazz.

I would NEVER say that about BJP!

MG

Sorry, I thought you went insane for a second. Now, to send some thugs to Cuscuna's place.

Also, Jim to what you were talking about....

Many listeners, musicians, critics, ect.... don't quite understand how completely individual and complex some of Patton's music is. Only an organist could appreciate the left and right hand independence of the whole "That Certain Feeling" LP. THAT is some ridiculously tough shit. And UNDERSTANDING....I mean, that's a freakin' DUO plus horn more or less! When Patton plays it's just him and drums and he's playing all over that thing. Memphis To NY Spirit is so far removed from what other organ grinders were up to it's a joke...I mean covering Wayne Shorter tunes and stuff like Steno and The Mandingo?!!! Come on!!!! That thing's a masterpiece. Every album he did was a completely different journey. As much as a LOVE McDuff and JOS....their records were all more or less the same. Patton was a Chameleon...I mean, listen to Along Came John and then put on Memphis To New York Spirit.

Edited March 25, 2006 by Soul Stream

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Also, Patton had no feel for Soul Jazz? Hell, he was one of the founders.

Hey, I never said that! I said that Michael Cuscuna didn't have much of a feel for Soul Jazz.

I would NEVER say that about BJP!

MG

Sorry, I thought you went insane for a second. Now, to send some thugs to Cuscuna's place.

Also, Jim to what you were talking about....

Many listeners, musicians, critics, ect.... don't quite understand how completely individual and complex some of Patton's music is. Only an organist could appreciate the left and right hand independence of the whole "That Certain Feeling" LP. THAT is some ridiculously tough shit. And UNDERSTANDING....I mean, that's a freakin' DUO plus horn more or less! When Patton plays it's just him and drums and he's playing all over that thing. Memphis To NY Spirit is so far removed from what other organ grinders were up to it's a joke...I mean covering Wayne Shorter tunes and stuff like Steno and The Mandingo?!!! Come on!!!! That thing's a masterpiece. Every album he did was a completely different journey. As much as a LOVE McDuff and JOS....their records were all more or less the same. Patton was a Chameleon...I mean, listen to Along Came John and then put on Memphis To New York Spirit.

I'm really not up to the techical stuff - you're probably right about only organists being able to appreciate what John was actually doing. But what comes over to the lay audience is what Jim was saying about his vision and the way everything - even John Zorn who, on the face of it is completely WRONG - fits together. But also, John has an odd way of doing things (not a technical term); I feel he is in a way similar to George Freeman. They're both like your neighbour offers you a lift into town one Saturday morning and goes HIS way, round all the back doubles. Suddenly you're lost; then suddenly you see a landmark in the distance and you know where you are again and you get to the same place in the end and everything's fine and you say, "Thanks for the ride".

MG

PS - I agree about the continuous development. Can't think of another musician who was so into developing his ideas over a whole career. I saw him in the early 90s - he was brought over to Brighton (home town of Acid Jazz) for a one-nighter - he was more or less compelled to do all his old stuff and looked a bit pissed off.

MG

Edited March 25, 2006 by The Magnificent Goldberg

[Soul Stream]

I saw him in the early 90s - he was brought over to Brighton (home town of Acid Jazz) for a one-nighter - he was more or less compelled to do all his old stuff and looked a bit pissed off.

MG

That sounds about right. Although he loved playing his old stuff so that probably wasn't what was bumming him out. Usually bad drummers and bad organs did that to Big John. Of course, hard to say without being there.

Edited March 25, 2006 by Soul Stream

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

I saw him in the early 90s - he was brought over to Brighton (home town of Acid Jazz) for a one-nighter - he was more or less compelled to do all his old stuff and looked a bit pissed off.

MG

That sounds about right. Although he loved playing his old stuff so that probably wasn't what was bumming him out. Usually bad drummers and bad organs did that to Big John. Of course, hard to say without being there.

I remember the band as being slightly sub-standard but not THAT sub-standard; they certainly knew all the tunes and were American, not British. I reckon the promoter would have had to pay for John's own organ to come over with him. If you're prepared to fly the man over the Atlantic for one night - there must have been two or three thousand there and not cheap to get in, 15 pounds I think, so this was a real money-maker - you can afford to bring a B3 &etc.

MG

[Soul Stream]

I saw him in the early 90s - he was brought over to Brighton (home town of Acid Jazz) for a one-nighter - he was more or less compelled to do all his old stuff and looked a bit pissed off.

MG

That sounds about right. Although he loved playing his old stuff so that probably wasn't what was bumming him out. Usually bad drummers and bad organs did that to Big John. Of course, hard to say without being there.

I remember the band as being slightly sub-standard but not THAT sub-standard; they certainly knew all the tunes and were American, not British. I reckon the promoter would have had to pay for John's own organ to come over with him. If you're prepared to fly the man over the Atlantic for one night - there must have been two or three thousand there and not cheap to get in, 15 pounds I think, so this was a real money-maker - you can afford to bring a B3 &etc.

MG

I'll have to ask John's widow Thelma about it. I remember him saying he went to England once or twice in the 90's but he didn't say much more than that. I remember he seemed proud that he got some recognition there at the time.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

I saw him in the early 90s - he was brought over to Brighton (home town of Acid Jazz) for a one-nighter - he was more or less compelled to do all his old stuff and looked a bit pissed off.

MG

That sounds about right. Although he loved playing his old stuff so that probably wasn't what was bumming him out. Usually bad drummers and bad organs did that to Big John. Of course, hard to say without being there.

I remember the band as being slightly sub-standard but not THAT sub-standard; they certainly knew all the tunes and were American, not British. I reckon the promoter would have had to pay for John's own organ to come over with him. If you're prepared to fly the man over the Atlantic for one night - there must have been two or three thousand there and not cheap to get in, 15 pounds I think, so this was a real money-maker - you can afford to bring a B3 &etc.

MG

I'll have to ask John's widow Thelma about it. I remember him saying he went to England once or twice in the 90's but he didn't say much more than that. I remember he seemed proud that he got some recognition there at the time.

I remember that Thelma came with him on this do. And I also remember some blurb in the local paper my mate sent me about how glad he was to come here. But I nonetheless got the impression it was just a job on the stage.

MG

[sidewinder]

Does anybody have the Patton BN Comp "The Organization"? It's a UK only release, per allmusic.

I've got all of his BN leader recordings (and alot, if not most of his BN sideman stuff), but this compilation still catches my eye for some reason. I still need to track down his two DIW releases, and eventually the Nilva (hoping that gets a CD issue someday).

I've also got this one on CD. Good stuff, for a compilation. Also issued on vinyl too (they did a similar compilation for Grant Green).

Only the vinyl version of the compilation had 6 previously unissued (at the time) cuts from the MTYNS and Boogaloo and "Dragon slayer" sessions, which made the vinyl version THE one to buy. But it's redundant now, of course.

MG

Funnily enough I picked up the vinyl of this one some years ago but had to return it because of a skip ( ). Since then I've picked up most of this material on the original LPs (whch sound fantastic)or 'Rare Groove LPs' so it is now redundant. Without exception, Big John's Blue Notes are amongst the most satisfying and enjoyable soul jazz LPs ever made and are essential listening.

I still find the intense groove achieved with Hugh Walker on 'Understanding' absolutely astonishing.

Edited March 26, 2006 by sidewinder

[Soul Stream]

[JSngry]

Yeah, there's times for me when Understanding feels to me like a duet record, so tightly entwined are Patton & Walker. Sax & organdrums. Amazing music.

And Jim - I do have Jump. Have yet to find the other Ponder. Just a matter of time.

[Jazz Kat]

Anyone here have that obscure Nilva label date that Patton is on with Grachan Moncur III? I've been looking for that one forever. The name escapes me at the moment.

Jim, who is that in your avatar..

[Soul Stream]

Yeah, there's times for me when Understanding feels to me like a duet record, so tightly entwined are Patton & Walker. Sax & organdrums. Amazing music.

What a recording. I might sell my first born for a live recording of Patton in that era. If that's what they could do in a studio what the hell were they doing live?!!!!!

[Guest]

when do you rekon THE WAY I FEEL will be out as a single disk. that album is way too good to be out of print. i have never heard it but once i saw big john not too long ago play the title cut. it was one of the high points of the show