Lee Morgan/Len Barry) - This Is Hard To Believe

[JSngry]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1-2-3_(Len_Barry_song)#cite_note-5

The personnel on the original recording included Vinnie Bell, Bobby Eli, and Sal Ditroia on guitars; Joe Macho on bass; Artie Butler on percussion; Leon Huff on piano; Artie Kaplan on sax; Bill Tole and Roswell Rudd on trombones; Lee Morgan on trumpet; Fred Hubbard on clarinet; and Bobby Gregg on drums.^[5]

The citation does not list the horn section (except for Artie Kaplan's solo), so how the fuck did they get THESE guys? And "Fred Hubbard" on clarinet? WTF?????

Always like the record well enough, but I ain't buying that.

 

[danasgoodstuff]

My guess is that someone abbreviated coronet and someone else misinterpreted.  I've seen that more than once.

[Chuck Nessa]

I tend to swoon when Fred plays clarinet.

[mjzee]

So 1-2-3 not only had jazz guys, but also Philly soul (Leon Huff on piano) and Bob Dylan's 1965 bassist and drummer.  Not a bad lot.

[bertrand]

Do we have a way to confirm Lee is on this? I have never seen it listed in his discography.

Presumably the song is from a full album. Maybe Lee appears on other tracks and takes a solo? The label seems to be Decca - is there a Decca discography out there?

Edited December 5, 2020 by bertrand

[EKE BBB]

Ruppli 

[bertrand]

Do you own these? I don't.

[Big Beat Steve]

5 hours ago, bertrand said:

Do we have a way to confirm Lee is on this? I have never seen it listed in his discography.

Presumably the song is from a full album. Maybe Lee appears on other tracks and takes a solo? The label seems to be Decca - is there a Decca discography out there?

Discogs is your friend:

https://www.discogs.com/de/Len-Barry-1-2-3/release/2825622

1-2-3 was a huge hit and in accordance with the habits of the day of course an album capitalizing (no, not Capitol ) on that hit was issued. No backing musician lineup given, though (this was not a usual practice with pop albums anyway). But there you have the "other" tracks from that release.

Edited December 5, 2020 by Big Beat Steve

[bertrand]

Just listened to Like A Baby, no Lee or Freddie solos either.

Leon Huff is still around and may have been the reason Lee was on there (Philly Connection). How do we ask him? 

[mjzee]

This is the flip to 1-2-3 (I have the single; this YouTube version sounds a little too fast):

 

[JSngry]

Always play the b-side. Always!

Also, just to clarify - I'm not suggesting that Lee Morgan, Roswell road, and Fred Hubbard are actually on this record. I strongly suspect that they aren't. I'm wondering how the hell a Wikipedia article got that in there in the first place.

[bertrand]

Although I agree they most likely are not, I would like to disprove it 100%. Where it came from is the real question - I always adhere to the 'where there's smoke there's fire' approach when it comes to discographical questions. Who would have just made that up out of the blue? Especially Rudd.

[mjzee]

18 minutes ago, bertrand said:

Who would have just made that up out of the blue?

Clicking on that Wikipedia page's citation #5 brings you to the Soulful Detroit bulletin board.  Eli (phillysoulman) posted:

Posted on Monday, June 28, 2004 - 4:45 pm: ��

���

---

Garo, 
123 was recorded at Bell Sound in NYC June of '65. 

The rhythm section was as follows: 

Bobby Gregg--Drums 
Joe Macho- Bass 
Leon Huff-Piano 
Artie Butler-Tamborine, vibes and assorted percussion 
Vinnie Bell-Guitar 
Bobby Eli-Guitar 
Sal Detroia-Guitar 

Artie Kaplan-Bari Solo 

Arranged by Jimmy Wisner 
Produced by Madara and White

And then dvdmike replied:

Posted on Monday, June 28, 2004 - 8:09 pm: ��

���

---

The actual session date for "1-2-3" was June 24, 1965

Neither say where they got the data from.  Interestingly, Eli's post doesn't mention Morgan, Hubbard or Rudd, but we know there are horns on the track.

[mjzee]

This guy seems to know something:

https://thjkoc.net/2020/11/09/len-barry/

And this is from "soul music historian and tastemaker Kevin Goins":

https://www.soultracks.com/story-len-barry-dies

[bertrand]

So Hubbard and Rudd are not mentioned, but Lee is several times.

Barry is from Philly, as is Huff. If they needed a trumpet player for the date, Lee could well have been their choice, he may have even known Huff or at least they had common friends.

Contacting Huff might well be the route to go.

Bertrand.

 

[bertrand]

Just tried Leon Huff via the website.

[JSngry]

This could raise the question of how many "name" jazzmen of the time were connected with the type of contracting system that woul allow them to get called in for some one-off pop dates, not as part of a regular house band or anything, just the kind of thing where somebody's doing a single date, they need a horn or two, and it's totally reasonable to call, say, Lee Morgan for a few hours work.

It's not unheard of by any means, but Lee never, to my knowledge, had the rep of somebody who got called for that type of work.

[bertrand]

3 hours ago, JSngry said:

This could raise the question of how many "name" jazzmen of the time were connected with the type of contracting system that woul allow them to get called in for some one-off pop dates, not as part of a regular house band or anything, just the kind of thing where somebody's doing a single date, they need a horn or two, and it's totally reasonable to call, say, Lee Morgan for a few hours work.

It's not unheard of by any means, but Lee never, to my knowledge, had the rep of somebody who got called for that type of work.

This is exactly the question it raises.

Ron Carter did a lot of these, but you are right that Lee is not known for that. But who assembled the band? The Philly connection does not prove Lee was involved, but it increases the odds somewhat.

[JSngry]

You can look at the credits on Atlantic records (where they are provided) to see a very transparent look at who all did these things regularly. But that was not a pick-up session scenario. Atlantic had a network and contractors who worked that network.

But geez, there were SO many pop sessions back then, demos, singles, albums, it wouldn't surprise me who all played on dates like that if they got the call and needed the bread. It also wouldn't surprise me if they kept it to themselves, because, you know, "artists" and all that.

Just kinda surprising that Lee Morgan might have been among them, never mind Roswell Rudd & Fred Hubbard, clarinetist of no inconsiderable mystique.