New Orleans and Jazz History

[Rabshakeh]

I've been watching Ken Burns' universally beloved TV series 'Jazz' for the first time. The first episode of the series is all about New Orleans. It is portrayed as both a microcosm of America and as a unique city in its own right: a melting pot, Storyville, Caribbean and Deep South influences meeting in a mixed urban environment, French history, riverboats, Congo square, creoles, brass bands, Buddy Bolden, etc. etc. All of this is said to explain how New Orleans 'gave birth' to jazz.

This is not a personal conceit of Burns' (even if Marsalis, his main talking head, does have a horse in the race). This is well-known and widely-rehearsed jazz historiography.

I would be interested to know forum members' views on the question: did jazz originate in New Orleans, and in what sense do we mean that?

Clearly, there must be something there. For example:

- A large number of the most important early jazz musicians were from New Orleans: The Original Dixieland Jass Band, King Oliver and Louis Armstrong among them.

- There are other examples of New Orleans musicians who were not in Chicago or New York at the time (and so not part of any network that Oliver and Armstrong might have been in). One example is Jelly Roll Morton, who pointed to New Orleans' geography and its proximity to Cuba to explain its importance.

- When the hot jazz enthusiasts travelled to New Orleans, they discovered a reasonably substantial number of old timers who had played the music. When interviewed, many of them recalled the early days of jazz. 

On the other hand, much of the story, as it is told, looks suspect or retrospective. 

- Riverboat mythology pre-dates jazz.

- The role and historiography of the figure of Buddy Bolden looks immediately suspicious. Likewise the interviews with old timers, which appear to have often been compromised with leading questions or by the interviewees' own desire to secure their own importance.

- Hard to tell what was played in Congo square, but one would have assumed it would have been something like the diasporic musics of the Caribbean and Brazil. If it was directly connected to jazz why do we not see evidence of it in the intervening period or in surrounding Louisiana musics? (or perhaps we do?)

- It might have just been an accident of small networks or of who got recorded / who had a hit.

- The early centres of jazz on record were in Chicago and New York, not New Orleans. This is notwithstanding widespread recording of southern musicians (including African American musicians) pre-Depression (even if those musicians had to travel). Why are there New Orleans blues records from this very early period, but not jazz? (although the sample size is maybe too small to generalise).

As I think it through, it occurs to me that plenty of music genres do derive from traceable geographies, but not always in the same way, and sometimes it is quite complex. Equally, some genres' well-known geographic origins are a matter of myth-making or misunderstanding.

Taking some examples that are hopefully constructive (my readings only - could be ill-informed):

- Reggae: Reggae came from Kingston in the late 1960s. Gradually emerging in a discernible way from the increasingly localised forms of gospel and R&B. The reasons for its stylistic emergence are not as apparent: perhaps a combination of American pop forms with a local substrate (as examples see recordings of maroon music or Jamaican country gospel), combined with local tastes and record industry practice on a small island. All evolving over a couple of decades. Or maybe the legend that Fats Domino kept cutting out over long distance radio really is true. Clearly reggae did emerge in Jamaica and nowhere else (unless I am very ill informed). Despite flourishing local scenes elsewhere, Reggae has never really left Jamaica, and the island remains the centre of the genre and deeply associated with it. Reggae nonetheless spreads associated ideas like sampling, toasting, DJs, bass culture and dub that are enormously influential everywhere.

- Hip hop: Hip hop emerged in New York. It emerged in a scene that was small enough that it was possible to identify the borough (I am reliably informed that it was not Queens), and some key early figures. Clearly, breakbeats, sampling, rapping and graffiti all pre-existed hip hop and had wider geographic spreads. But hip hop as we know it is different to other uses of those elements, and it did not emerge anywhere other than New York in the mid-to-late 1970s, even if there were comparable local scenes in other US cities (e.g. in Washington DC). However, I think (possibly wrongly) that parts of early hip hop: 'electro' may have arisen in New York in parallel to the early hip hop scene and then been absorbed. Once hip hop comes into existence, it quickly becomes widespread, but New York remains it's centre for a decade, only gradually losing its dominance.

- Punk: Punk is a very traceable but complex example. Grass roots and local groups playing raw R&B or early rock and roll-inspired music were widespread from the 60s to the mid-70s in every geography, from the American Mid-West to Singapore. If that is punk then punk is not the product of any one local scene. But the modern understanding of punk emerged in one of two scenes (which you point to as being ground zero of punk depending on where you are from): Manhattan or West London, in roughly 1975-77. Whatever these two scenes actually created (and much of it seems to have been a matter of attitude or fashion rather than music) then quickly takes root in other territories as part of a wider turn away from 60s/70s styles (not just musical). A multitude of regional scenes flourishes.

- Blues: Blues emerges over several decades, all just outside of historical view, in forms that are widely diffused across the American South. In that sense, it is not a scene from any particular region. Early records of blues musicians are made almost everywhere and with musicians from all kinds of cities. Blues is, however, very closely identified with the Mississippi delta among casual music listeners. This is (to my understanding) probably ahistorical; a reflection of the linked facts that some influential later Chicago players came from the Delta and that, out of the numerous earlier styles, Delta Blues was the most prized style among some of the most influential blues fans from later generations. This has not stopped numerous books and documentaries from claiming that the Blues comes "from the Delta".

- Free Jazz: A surprisingly large number of major players in early free jazz come from Fort Worth, including Ornette Coleman himself. But I don't think anyone in their right mind would say that free jazz originated in Fort Worth. Rather, what we are seeing here is social networks: musicians, isolated in a different environment, seeking out friendly faces from back home. 

- Heavy metal substyles: Heavy metal (in the modern sense) emerges as a generalised movement in Britain and crystallises in reaction to punk in the late 70s. It then starts getting harder and faster, becoming what was/is sometimes known by various broadly applied names like 'thrash metal', 'black metal', 'death metal' or 'speed metal' (depending on where you are looking). A substantial number of those bands were based in California, in either LA or Oakland. "The Bay Area" can stand in for "thrash metal 1982-87" to a metalhead of my era. However, no one claims that the thrash metal style "originated" in LA or Oakland. Instead it was a core component of a geographically widespread part of a wider arms race in metal. In contrast, "black metal", as now understood, clearly did emerge in Oslo in 1990-1992, among a tiny group of horrible teenagers who viewed themselves as harking back to earlier forms of thrash metal ("black metal", using the term in its original wider sense; they were thinking particularly of German and Scandinavian bands from the same chronological wave as the earlier Oaklanders), which they regarded as having been side-lined by slicker forms of metal, like the death metal being produced in Florida at the time.

- Bebop: Mintons is regarded as 'year zero', and in some ways it is, but the story is more complex than is told. During the swing era various styles emerge across the US that we might discern as recognisably "bop" or "proto-bop". The Mintons group then codifies certain practices (some of which are quite short-lived within the genre's own life) and provide the style with talismanic young leaders and a sense of generational shift that brings it into perceived existence as a separate genre or style. In that sense, bebop does emerge out of Mintons.

I think that the narrative espoused for the emergence of jazz in texts like Ken Burns' jazz is effectively similar to what we see for hip hop: various pre-existing elements are combined in a scene that is specific to a city (with key early names identifiable), in a way that simply does not exist in other cities, and is then disseminated rapidly outside of the early geographic area of development. It is not the story that we see for e.g. punk or bop or even black metal, where there are more or less local crystallisations of very widespread developments; or for reggae, where the genre was created local but remained local.

The biggest difference from all the above is that almost all of the evidence for jazz in New Orleans is secondhand: what we see is a reflection back from something that happened in New York and Chicago.

I am not really informed enough about whether there are other types of proto-jazz or parallel-jazzes or post-ragtimes that might have existed separately. Was Stride a parallel development? What about the notoriously "jazzy" blues style of cities like Memphis? I vaguely recall that in one of Allen's books, he mentions that a record of something similar to jazz was recorded in (I think) St. Louis in the very short period between the collapse of ragtime, the beginning of the commercial record industry and the recording of the ODJB in Chicago. Are there other examples?

So, what do we mean when we say something like "Jazz originated in New Orleans"?

Interested in other forum members' views.

Edited September 22, 2023 by Rabshakeh

[John L]

Nice post. 

There is some mystery surrounding the origins of jazz, as well as blues, due to a scarcity of recorded evidence until the 1920s.   One point to consider is the following: the question of where jazz was born depends greatly on how we define jazz.  It is possible to define jazz to include ragtime.  A that case, a strong argument can be made that it wasn't born in New Orleans.  If we define jazz as the kind of mix of ragtime, blues, and rhythmic nuance that Jelly Roll Morton talked about, then a strong case can be made for New Orleans as the center of its birth.    

Personally, I don't have any problem with considering New Orleans the true birthplace of jazz. 

[Big Beat Steve]

Agree with John L. Particularly with regard to the lack of recorded evidence until the end of WWI.

No doubt that there were developments going on elsewhere that went in a similar direction. Because this probably this was a "thing" that "was in the air". But they are undocumented and largely unexplored.

OTOH, even in N.O. there seems to have been a lot going on that remained undocumented. I remember there was a book about early "big bands" (i.e. large-sized orchestras that were NOT marching bands but played for dacing, probably a lot were ragtime orchestras) that were active in the New Orleans area at about the period of the "birth" of jazz or even its immediate pre-history. The total of those orchestras known to have existed was about 100 and not one left a recorded trace. Yet someone managed to fill a book with their history.

[gvopedz]

1 hour ago, Rabshakeh said:

- Heavy metal substyles: Heavy metal (in the modern sense) emerges as a generalised movement in Britain and crystallises in reaction to punk in the late 70s.

...So, what do we mean when we say something like "Jazz originated in New Orleans"?

 

 

With regard to the origin of jazz, some people bring in Mexico:

https://www.trinity.edu/krtu/news/how-porfirio-díaz-changed-course-music-and-influenced-origins-jazz

By the way, I would like to hear Ritchie Blackmore's reaction to your statement that "heavy metal...crystallises in reaction to punk in the late 70s."

[Rabshakeh]

I agree with all of this as statements.

"A mix of ragtime, blues, and rhythmic nuance" is probably as good a definition as we are going to get for early jazz.

But I still think that it leads backwards to the question of why we associate this mix, which is first documented and popularised in Chicago, with New Orleans, and not with Chicago, "the South", or "the Mid-West". 

51 minutes ago, Big Beat Steve said:

No doubt that there were developments going on elsewhere that went in a similar direction. Because this probably this was a "thing" that "was in the air". But they are undocumented and largely unexplored.

My issue is that one of the "undocumented and largely unexplored" developments in early jazz is the jazz that was being played in New Orleans at the time, which I don't think was recorded until later.

I'm not trying to be controversial, but rather trying to identify why there is such a strong association that most histories start with New Orleans and not with either a wider area or with Chicago.

51 minutes ago, Big Beat Steve said:

I remember there was a book about early "big bands" (i.e. large-sized orchestras that were NOT marching bands but played for dacing, probably a lot were ragtime orchestras) that were active in the New Orleans area at about the period of the "birth" of jazz or even its immediate pre-history. The total of those orchestras known to have existed was about 100 and not one left a recorded trace. Yet someone managed to fill a book with their history.

Interesting point. Query whether they would have been "dance" bands in the sense of other cities or whether there would have been a proto jazz repertoire that they played. Maybe both, depending on audience?

One point for New Orleans as point of origin of jazz that I didn't really explore above is of course the marching band culture. Whether that comes from Central European immigration (as a montage early in Burns's documentary suggests), or Mexico (maybe with it's own immigration patterns), or local Southern US military traditions, or something else, it is probably a key part of the story.

How unique was New Orleans' brass band culture within the wider context of African American music at the time?

17 minutes ago, gvopedz said:

With regard to the origin of jazz, some people bring in Mexico:

https://www.trinity.edu/krtu/news/how-porfirio-díaz-changed-course-music-and-influenced-origins-jazz

We had an interesting discussion elsewhere on this board about whether anyone had attempted jazz mariachi. I think we did find some jazz-quality Norteno accordion work.

17 minutes ago, gvopedz said:

By the way, I would like to hear Ritchie Blackmore's reaction to your statement that "heavy metal...crystallises in reaction to punk in the late 70s."

I should direct him to the content of the ellipsis, which would hopefully serve to mollify the wounded Blackmore.

Interesting you chose Blackmore and not Iommi or Page or someone else. Definitely agree with you, if that is what you are indicating, that Ritchie Blackmore's is the single most important source from which modern metal guitar is descended.

Edited September 22, 2023 by Rabshakeh

[jazzbo]

I think part of the reason that we associate this new innovation in music with New Orleans is because the Original Dixieland Jazz Band was very popular and viewed as a creative force in popularizing the forms, and also that even in Chicago and San Francisco and NYC where early recordings appear New Orleans musicians are deeply involved in the recordings and the rave appearances (Original New Orleans Jazz Band with Durante, New Orleans Rhythm Kings, King Oliver, many more).

Edited September 22, 2023 by jazzbo

[Rabshakeh]

11 minutes ago, jazzbo said:

I think part of the reason that we associate this new innovation in music with New Orleans is because the Original Dixieland Jazz Band was very popular and viewed as a creative force in popularizing the forms, and also that even in Chicago and San Francisco and NYC where early recordings appear New Orleans musicians are deeply involved in the recordings and the rave appearances.

This seems right, but maybe it doesn't clinch it (I don't think that you are saying that it does). Lots of early jazz musicians were not from New Orleans, even if some of the best were. I used the facile non-example of Fort Worth and Free Jazz upthread as a counter to this - it could be that what we are seeing is just a network of musicians who, after one initially became famous, received the benefits, with their network receiving more coverage and, later, retrospective status as the originals.

Something like this occured in hip hop, and was alluded to in the original post. One of the early networks of stars in hip hop was the Juice Crew, who came from Queensbridge. They were very loud in trumpeting Queens as the original epicentre of the new genre. They were also excellent rappers, producers and hitmakers. It took effort from the original scenemakers, and a very famous diss track, to point out that MC Shan, Marley Marl and company were in fact never a part of the original scene, which had been centered on the Bronx.

Edited September 22, 2023 by Rabshakeh

[jazzbo]

Most of those non-New Orleans jazz musicians in the earliest years were inspired, referencing, copying or collaborating with New Orleans musicians. Even in Europe, a musician such as Bechet very early on was a force for jazz on that continent. If we are talking the earliest of jazz recordings and references, New Orleans seems to dominate.

I'm not making any big claims for New Orleans itself, but I do believe this is a big reason why that city is cited as the genesis of the genre.

Edited September 22, 2023 by jazzbo

[mjazzg]

1 hour ago, Rabshakeh said:

Heavy metal (in the modern sense) emerges as a generalised movement in Britain and crystallises in reaction to punk in the late 70s.

Separate thread required. Heavy Metal is a modern genre even in its earliest manifestations.  Or maybe that view is a product of my age.

And, everyone knows it was born in London via Birmingham on 16th October 1969 😄

[Rabshakeh]

38 minutes ago, jazzbo said:

I don't see a large amount of early jazz musicians from Fort Worth, their appearance is later.

I am referring to free jazz musicians for Fort Worth, rather than early jazz musicians. If one is counting musicians' places of origins, which is certainly a reasonable way to trace where a scene developed, then it might look like Fort Worth was an important local point of development for free jazz. But they were just Ornette Coleman's friends, whom he took with him as he went.

I think that there could be something of that sort at play for the important Oliver / Armstrong connection in early jazz. However, neither ODJB nor Jellyroll Morton were part of that network, so we can be certain that there is something wider. New Orleans must have been a major centre of early jazz, in contrast to Fort Worth and Free Jazz. If New Orleans wasn't an important early jazz centre, then it would not have produced such a wide spread of early jazz musicians, which crosses America and the colour line.

But none of this is that conclusive as evidence for the question of whether the style actually developed there. Lots of jazz musicians from the same generation as Oliver/Armstrong were from different cities and had no connection to New Orleans. Those of the same generation may have flourished slightly later only because they were recorded later.

That could easily be a trick of coincidence. Consider the chronology of blues recording around the same time: music hall stars from the East Coast (often singing orchestrated music, with prominent horns) become popular and got recorded long before the lone guitarists from the South. When Blind Lemon Jefferson happened, those lone guitarists (playing an instrument only quite recently adopted into Southern American music) crowded out what is likely to have been other kinds of musicians, because record industry scouts were looking for more Blind Lemon Jeffersons, and not weirdos with fiddles and banjos. It is possible that what we are seeing is the same happening with jazz: ODJB have a hit, so industry people try to record more of the same. 

What there is lots of is interviews with New Orleans musicians from the early era. But Bunk Johnson and Jellyroll Morton aren't that credible, and it is not always clear in some cases whether an interviewer is essentially asking the subject to confirm what was already known (the Buddy Bolden connection is a classic example of this - noone asked would deny playing with Bolden as to do so would be tantamount to denying ones own role in the creation of jazz).

I am wondering whether we have evidence for New Orleans being the point of origin of early jazz, rather than just an early centre?

I don't know how many interviews were carried out with the older generation of jazz musicians who did not come from New Orleans concerning the music scenes in their respective cities or places of origin. That might be because I haven't read them, or because they are less prominent than the well known and significant interviews and publications produced in the early years of the trad revival.

26 minutes ago, mjazzg said:

And, everyone knows it was born in London via Birmingham on 16th October 1969 

What is this that stands before me?

Edited September 22, 2023 by Rabshakeh

[gvopedz]

21 minutes ago, mjazzg said:

...everyone knows it was born in London via Birmingham on 16th October 1969 😄

We have a Black Sabbath fan in this forum.

[AllenLowe]

I apologize for not having the time right now to go into detail about my opinion on this, but I will start by quoting Larry Gushee, who said "New Orleans is not where jazz started, but they have an excellent chamber of commerce."

There was no better historian of early jazz than Larry. Personally I would say that perhaps early jazz was taken to its highest point of early development there, but there is no way to determine origins in an empirical way, I think. Think: James Reese Europe; Gus Haenschen; San Francisco (there is a good book on this); Eubie Blake's Charleston Rag (1921) (which really is a game changer); and the pre-history which is largely but not only Southern, and which I do cover in Devilin' Tune. I would also encourage you to read Willie the Lion Smith's autobio, which tells us what a complex musical world the North had.

But listen to Charleston Rag, by a Northeasterner, from 1921; this is a Jazz Piece, as are several things by the Europe Band in 1913 (Charleston Rag had other names like Sounds of Africa and African Rag):

 

Edited September 22, 2023 by AllenLowe

[mjazzg]

3 minutes ago, gvopedz said:

We have a Black Sabbath fan in this forum.

A bit lapsed perhaps but they meant an awful lot to me in my teenage years and I absolutely recognise their historic importance.

And given @Rabshakeh's response,

"What is this that stands before me?"

I'd hazard a guess, another one

[Rabshakeh]

Much of the reason why I am interested is that so much of the discussion of the origins of jazz is heavily laden with New Orleansiana, whether riverboats, brothel districts or Mr. Bolden.

If you were take that stuff out of the first episode of Burns's documentary, all you would be left with would be some monologues about America, and an instructive section where Wynton talks drum patterns.

[jazzbo]

I personally think you make too much of Fort Worth and Free Jazz. And by that time there was a big difference in America--radio and TV and other factors (WW2, et al) have created a jazz scene and an American cultural scene that made melting pot even more fondu than ever before.

I'll bow out of this discussion as it seems much ado about nothing to me. We won't know if jazz developed around New Orleans or drifted there from elsewhere. What drove me away from college and certain studies is just this sort of discussion which . . . I'm sorry it does little for me.

[AllenLowe]

13 minutes ago, jazzbo said:

I personally think you make too much of Fort Worth and Free Jazz. And by that time there was a big difference in America--radio and TV and other factors (WW2, et al) have created a jazz scene and an American cultural scene that made melting pot even more fondu than ever before.

I'll bow out of this discussion as it seems much ado about nothing to me. We won't know if jazz developed around New Orleans or drifted there from elsewhere. What drove me away from college and certain studies is just this sort of discussion which . . . I'm sorry it does little for me.

I understand how academia, in particular, can destroy any enthusiasm one might have on any topic; but the origins of jazz question is really one about African American cultural history, and how various pre-jazz forces - from minstrelsy to songsterism to black and white pop, racism, and various musical stages came together in a strangely comprehensive way; kind of like a slow Big Bang theory. And I won't even mention the question of 19th century white fiddlers; and early black string bands.

Also, in the middle of all this we may have missed my post above, with the Eubie Blake piano piece, which is really jazz in 1921 from a Northerner.

Edited September 22, 2023 by AllenLowe

[mjazzg]

Well I'm finding the discussion fascinating and educative. I have nothing to offer to the discussion because I know so little (Black Sabbath aside).

But obviously respect others might have a different opinion.

Keep going folks. And it has prompted me to finally order a copy of 'Deviln' Tune'

Edited September 22, 2023 by mjazzg

[Big Beat Steve]

@Allen Lowe:

I now realize I ought to have mentioned your earlier compilations (including your "Turn Me Loose ..." CD set and book) for traces of aural pre-jazz documents that may indicate what developments may have been brewing in various other places at that time.

@Rabshakeh:

Given your puzzlement about Buddy Bolden, the brothels and other stereotypes of events and places surrounding early jazz history in New Orleans and that we will never be able to document a lot of what may have happened there or elsewhere in the musical history leading to the birth of jazz more than 100 years ago, may I suggest you get yourself a copy of "Tiger Rag" by Nicholas Christopher? Of course it ALL is purely, totally fictitious, but I think when you read it you will find yourself wondering "A lot of this reads like it could have happened that way, so what if it actually did happen that way after all?" We'll never know one way or another ...

 

 

[JSngry]

New Orleans is a port city, so not just riverboats but oceanic travel as well. 

So between sailors and whorehouses, dissemination of SOMETHING is all but inevitable. 

[Rabshakeh]

5 hours ago, AllenLowe said:

I apologize for not having the time right now to go into detail about my opinion on this, but I will start by quoting Larry Gushee, who said "New Orleans is not where jazz started, but they have an excellent chamber of commerce."

There was no better historian of early jazz than Larry. Personally I would say that perhaps early jazz was taken to its highest point of early development there, but there is no way to determine origins in an empirical way, I think. Think: James Reese Europe; Gus Haenschen; San Francisco (there is a good book on this); Eubie Blake's Charleston Rag (1921) (which really is a game changer); and the pre-history which is largely but not only Southern, and which I do cover in Devilin' Tune. I would also encourage you to read Willie the Lion Smith's autobio, which tells us what a complex musical world the North had.

But listen to Charleston Rag, by a Northeasterner, from 1921; this is a Jazz Piece, as are several things by the Europe Band in 1913 (Charleston Rag had other names like Sounds of Africa and African Rag):

 

Sorry. I was googling Geeshee's book (which looks great - a definite purchase), then the website went down for me. 

The Eubie Blake track is pretty eye opening. Obviously the opening presentation of the theme seems like ragtime, and throughout the track it does resolve back into that, but it has the pulse that is unmistakable.

Two points:

First, are we already not into recorded jazz history by this point? Perhaps records were slow to disseminate, but Blake could have been playing the 'new sound'? I think the key point though is that here is a musician from the North and from the preceding generation who already has the very different rhythmic feeling mastered, maybe because it wasn't new to him. 

Second, are there any examples of Northerners (or non-New Orleans musicians) playing jazz horns at this early stage? Even textual references? I realize that the horns and the polyphony are not the key markers of the emergence of early jazz (as opposed to the rhythmic switch) but it is noticeable that the examples of non-New Orleans jazz, whether Blake or Willie The Lion Smith etc, are piano players. The James Reese Europe records do feature horns, but seem to me to be very definitely on the ragtime side, but this could be a factor of having to arrange for such a large band.

I must say that the reminder of Sidney Bechet and the indirect reference to Freddie Keppard’s Original Creole Orchestra up thread do seem to me to tilt the balance somewhat in favour of a stronger New Orleans connection. That really is a very substantial number of key musicians linking to New Orleans.

5 hours ago, Big Beat Steve said:

@Rabshakeh:

Given your puzzlement about Buddy Bolden, the brothels and other stereotypes of events and places surrounding early jazz history in New Orleans and that we will never be able to document a lot of what may have happened there or elsewhere in the musical history leading to the birth of jazz more than 100 years ago, may I suggest you get yourself a copy of "Tiger Rag" by Nicholas Christopher? Of course it ALL is purely, totally fictitious, but I think when you read it you will find yourself wondering "A lot of this reads like it could have happened that way, so what if it actually did happen that way after all?" We'll never know one way or another ...

I'm interested. How does it compare to the Michael Ondaatje book? 

5 hours ago, JSngry said:

New Orleans is a port city, so not just riverboats but oceanic travel as well. 

So between sailors and whorehouses, dissemination of SOMETHING is all but inevitable. 

This stuff really burns. Next time I'll go to a nice clean concert hall. 

[Rabshakeh]

5 hours ago, AllenLowe said:

And I won't even mention the question of 19th century white fiddlers; and early black string bands.

Off topic, but this one has always interested me most. I sometimes wonder about how many of the distinctive features of 20th African American music actually evolved in the context of string band dance music. It was one of the main forms of African American music for over 100 years, but it is basically ignored by the histories. Nothing less sexy than a cèilidh, I suppose.

We know that in the Caribbean, where the diasporic elements are comparatively much more pronounced in comparison to European, it was still a vitally important part of the emergence of the new localised musical forms (even if the fiddles mostly dropped out quickly in the recorded era). It must have been even more important in the US.

Here's an example, so anyone interested: 

 

Edited September 22, 2023 by Rabshakeh

[JSngry]

You'll come back for the burn, because that's where it lives. Price you got to pay to be free, etc. 

But seriously, look at a map - there are many different ways for things to get out of - or into - New Orleans than just the river. 

[Rabshakeh]

4 minutes ago, JSngry said:

You'll come back for the burn, because that's where it lives. Price you got to pay to be free, etc. 

But seriously, look at a map - there are many different ways for things to get out of - or into - New Orleans than just the river. 

Yeah. I don't take the river thing seriously, but that river does also go through a lot of other cities.

[JSngry]

The river thing should be taken seriously, but not in isolation as per the popular narrative. 

[AllenLowe]

28 minutes ago, Rabshakeh said:

Off topic, but this one has always interested me most. I sometimes wonder about how many of the distinctive features of 20th African American music actually evolved in the context of string band dance music. It was one of the main forms of African American music for over 100 years, but it is basically ignored by the histories. Nothing less sexy than a cèilidh, I suppose.

We know that in the Caribbean, where the diasporic elements are comparatively much more pronounced in comparison to European, it was still a vitally important part of the emergence of the new localised musical forms (even if the fiddles mostly dropped out quickly in the recorded era). It must have been even more important in the US.

Here's an example, so anyone interested: 

 

My next project (probably next spring) is on Black country, and you might be surprised at how many black string bands recorded in the 1920s and 1930s.