Miles in France 1963 & 1964

[Stefan Wood]

Received my copy today.  Spinning the first disc and it's very nice.  Miles is very much involved, and I'm curious as to how much room he allowed for Coleman to contribute.  The energy that Carter and Wliams brings is palpable.

[JSngry]

Coleman filled his role, He played choruses, Overall, I don't think his role was either constrained or expanded.

[Stefan Wood]

12 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Coleman filled his role, He played choruses, Overall, I don't think his role was either constrained or expanded.

Yes, exactly.  I love his playing much later on (in the later 70s and early 80's), and he's a good musician, but fit and chemistry were everything for this group and Coleman's playing here is....... nice and pleasant.  Not challenging.

[JSngry]

He filled a need and initially was welcome. Miles heard the trio misxing it up behind him and said, hey, why don't you do that with me? They said, oh, you want that? Ok!

By the time it was over, I've heard that Herbie and Tony were grumbling about Coleman not pushing anything past what he did. Apparently Miles agreed, because when Wayne came available, Miles snatched him right up!

I enjoy the band with George, but it is very pleasant, but just a little predictable. That's not a dis on George either, just...band dynamics.

[jazzbo]

I listened to the albums with George for years before I moved on to the Quintet with Wayne. I love those albums. . . I always will.

[Guy Berger]

2 hours ago, JSngry said:

He filled a need and initially was welcome. Miles heard the trio misxing it up behind him and said, hey, why don't you do that with me? They said, oh, you want that? Ok!

By the time it was over, I've heard that Herbie and Tony were grumbling about Coleman not pushing anything past what he did. Apparently Miles agreed, because when Wayne came available, Miles snatched him right up!

I enjoy the band with George, but it is very pleasant, but just a little predictable. That's not a dis on George either, just...band dynamics.

If we’re talking post-Coltrane, pre-Shorter saxophonists in Miles’s bands for which we have recordings - Imho George is much better fit than either Hank Mobley or Sonny Stitt.

[JSngry]

Agreed. Even though we'd be talking about two totally different rhythm sections in that comparison.

I think the real catalyst was Tony. Tony split that particular atom and everything else followed from that.

[Stefan Wood]

This. 

Like I said,.Coleman wasn't bad, just not the "fit" that this particular group needed. 

Coleman smokes in the Left Bank sessions, At Yoshi's, and much later, at Smalls.

[JSngry]

Nobody's mentioned Sam Rivers yet. That was Tony's recruit, and Miles was just not having it LOL. But that shows you the type of energy that Tony felt was necessary going forth, and Miles was not going to let Tony go so early into that game!

[Stefan Wood]

On 6/30/2025 at 9:26 PM, JSngry said:

Nobody's mentioned Sam Rivers yet. That was Tony's recruit, and Miles was just not having it LOL. But that shows you the type of energy that Tony felt was necessary going forth, and Miles was not going to let Tony go so early into that game!

Or perhaps Sam had the energy but the wrong chemistry?

[JSngry]

Miles didn't like Sam's playing. Simples as that. And objectively, I get it. Sam was pretty skronky. 

[Д.Д.]

Miles consistently praised George Coleman, long after his involvement with Miles was over. I remember reading some Coleman interview where he said that the "younger guys" in the band - not Miles - kept giving him a cold shoulder. Please note that Miles (tipped off by Coltrane, IIRC) made Shorter an offer to join the band back in 1961 - before Coleman was invited. So probably Coleman (as well as Stitt, Mobley and Rivers) was considered a (very) temporary placeholders until Shorter would eventually become available.       

[JSngry]

Yep.

[Stefan Wood]

1 hour ago, Д.Д. said:

Miles consistently praised George Coleman, long after his involvement with Miles was over. I remember reading some Coleman interview where he said that the "younger guys" in the band - not Miles - kept giving him a cold shoulder. Please note that Miles (tipped off by Coltrane, IIRC) made Shorter an offer to join the band back in 1961 - before Coleman was invited. So probably Coleman (as well as Stitt, Mobley and Rivers) was considered a (very) temporary placeholders until Shorter would eventually become available.       

Ah, so that's a more interesting take regarding Coleman.  I always knew Miles wanted Wayne after Coltrane had left.

[felser]

On 6/30/2025 at 7:10 PM, Stefan Wood said:

This. 

Like I said,.Coleman wasn't bad, just not the "fit" that this particular group needed. 

Coleman smokes in the Left Bank sessions, At Yoshi's, and much later, at Smalls.

And with Elvin Jones in many settings over several years!

[jazzbo]

I guess I think more highly of George with Miles than many here. "Seven Steps to Heaven,""My Funny Valentine," "Four + More," and "Miles Davis in Europe" (and previously unreleased material from these) are among my favorite Miles, in part perhaps because they were among my first Non-'lectric Miles, and among my longest listened to.

[felser]

1 hour ago, jazzbo said:

I guess I think more highly of George with Miles than many here. "Seven Steps to Heaven,""My Funny Valentine," "Four + More," and "Miles Davis in Europe" (and previously unreleased material from these) are among my favorite Miles, in part perhaps because they were among my first Non-'lectric Miles, and among my longest listened to.

I'm with you.  'Four + More' is actually my most played Miles recording.

 

[JSngry]

That's a longass LP. They both were.

[Stefan Wood]

Considering how Coleman played later that decade, I find him very "polite" in his playing here by comparison.  It's still good music.

[jazzbo]

Perhaps 'polite' is underrated.

[JSngry]

Politeness is an admirable and often desirable quality in social intercourse. But when in comes to getting Tony Williams to open up to his full un-polite self...maybe not so much.

[felser]

6 hours ago, JSngry said:

That's a longass LP. They both were.

Yep, great value for 17-18 year old me when I first bought them!

Four and More - 28:30 + 25:32 = 54:02

My Funny Valentine - 29:53 + 33:00 = 62:53

In Europe - 30:40 + 30:14 = 60:54

 

[JSngry]

15 minutes ago, felser said:

Yep, great value for 17-18 year old me when I first bought them!

Four and More - 28:30 + 25:32 = 54:02

My Funny Valentine - 29:53 + 33:00 = 62:53

In Europe - 30:40 + 30:14 = 60:54

 

I thought the programming sabotaged their (the Lincoln Center albums) effectiveness, breaking them up into ballads on one, up tunes on the other. Just too damn much of the same thing on each record.

The complete concert CD was a lot better in that regard, but by then, I was less interested in the whole thing. In Europe is more or less the same thing, but with more fresheners and variety. Imo.

[mhatta]

Personally, I feel that George Coleman seems somewhat inhibited or self-conscious in Miles' band. He displays his monstrous playing in live performances with Wynton Kelly at the Left Bank Jazz Society and at Ronnie Scott's in London, but in these performances, the drummers are more conservative. Perhaps he was not well suited to Tony Williams' rhythm conception.

[jazzbo]

7 hours ago, JSngry said:

Politeness is an admirable and often desirable quality in social intercourse. But when in comes to getting Tony Williams to open up to his full un-polite self...maybe not so much.

Opinions differ on that.