Blakey's '65 Limelight sides w/Gilmore, Morgan

[Peter]

Well, I'd distinguish the Mingus edits because Mingus himself did them as part of the creative process. Did Blakey edit the Gilmore out? Of course Tristano edited Konitz out of the live at the half note w/Marsh. Verve restored Konitz and released it and it is one of my vavorites. Ultimately the listener buys and listens to what he wants. I want the Gilmore solos, in the off change anyone with power is listening.

[ghost of miles]

Anybody heard the Blakey yet? I ordered it yesterday & probably won't get it till late next week...

[WD45]

After listening to some sound samples at CD UNiverse, it sounds a bit on the "loose" side for a Blakey date. Yes?

[BruceH]

Well, I'd distinguish the Mingus edits because Mingus himself did them as part of the creative process.

Which is why I prefer the original, edited, Columbia Mingus albums.

[Guest ariceffron]

DID THEY EDIT GILMORE CAUSE HE WAS PLAYING TOO OUTSIDE, OR FOR TIME CONSTRAINTS

[Brad]

I'm pickin this up tomorrow so I'll let y'all know. Never heard this before but heck Mogie and Blakey gotta be worth it.

[MartyJazz]

Lucky plays on more than one track on Soul Finger.

According to Bruyninckx he's only on that one track, if you know better, can you please post details, for my Lucky Disco? Thanks.

I have an original Limelight gatefold of "Soul Finger". Haven't listened to it in years altho I too am a Lucky fan.

Played it through and as all of you have confirmed, Lucky indeed only plays on one selection, "Spot Session", and on soprano only. Shame that there's no Lucky on tenor on this LP. Thanks to all of you who pointed out the presence of Bartz on alto. Relistening to this LP after many a year, it is indeed quite apparent that Bartz is indeed on the date. Curious as to why there is no mention of him in the personnel. Liner notes only mention Bartz as one of many Jazz Messenger members over the years but fail to point out his contributions to this album.

Edited June 11, 2004 by MartyJazz

[Parkertown]

I picked up S'Make It the other day and have been enjoying it immensely. Had no idea about Gilmore solos being excised. (Just found this thread). Lee's solos are great, IMO. Masterful!

I love the sound on this cd. Another great job from Sundazed studios.

(I also picked up Gloria Coleman's "Soul Sisters". Man, you guys weren't kidding on this one. These ladies cook! )

[Alexander]

I got it, after much deliberation. I have a LOT of Blakey, and as much as I like him, it does all start to run together after a while. I have to say I was impressed. It does have a much looser sound than Blakey's Blue Notes. A welcome change. Pity about Gilmore's solos, though.

[sheldonm]

Picked it up an hour ago (with my Borders coupon) and have it spinnin' right now. Haven't heard enough of it yet to really give a review, but it sounds pretty good....I never get enough of Blakey (or Morgan)!

[Brad]

I've listened to most of it and so far it's ok. It seems to lack the bite or drive of his late 50s/early 60s Messengers although I think John Hicks stands out.

[Shrdlu]

The problem you'll have with this record is that all (or just most? I forget) of the Gilmore solos are missing. At least one unedited track with a Gilmore solo was issued on a various artists LP - if Verve knows what they're doing, they'll include that in the CD reissue. Unfortunately, that's a big "if".

Mike

But I distinctly remember hearing some Gilmore solos on the original LP. And the AMG review (I know, I know ...) says "Gilmore's strong blowing complements Morgan very well". My memory may be getting a little rusty anymore, though, and I don't have a copy here to check.

[BruceH]

Just saw this in the store today, and was very, very tempted. But for some odd reason I ended up getting some more Warne Marsh.

[connoisseur series500]

I'd like some recommendations on recordings where Gilmore shines and get lots of solo time. 

Cliff Jordan & John Gilmore, Blowing in from Chicago (Blue Note)

Freddie Hubbard, The Artistry of F.H,. (Impulse!)

Elmo Hope, Sounds from Rikers Island (Fresh Sound)

Paul Bley, Turning Point (IAI)

McCoy Tyner, Today and Tomorrow (Impulse!)

Pete LaRoca, Turkish Women at the Bath (32Jazz)

Andrew Hill, Andrew!!! (Blue Note)

Andrew Hill, Compulsion (Blue Note)

Art Blakey, Are You Real (Moon)

Dizzy Reece & John Gilmore, From In to Out (Futura)

Luca

Gilmore also plays on Andrew Hill, "Shades" on SoulNote.

That's one of my favorite Hill's....

[JSngry]

Ever notice how much Gilmore sounds like Clifford Jordan on that one?

[connoisseur series500]

I was in Dearborn Music the other day and ran into this reissue. I thought to myself, "WTF???" and jumped on it for $11.97. I played it a couple of times and loved it. Curtis Fuller has some terrific solo space here, as does Mogie.

Just came across this thread. Don't know if it would have affected my decision to buy the cd; but I'm glad I did!

[connoisseur series500]

Ever notice how much Gilmore sounds like Clifford Jordan on that one?

Man, I'm getting old....

[ghost of miles]

The problem you'll have with this record is that all (or just most? I forget) of the Gilmore solos are missing. At least one unedited track with a Gilmore solo was issued on a various artists LP - if Verve knows what they're doing, they'll include that in the CD reissue. Unfortunately, that's a big "if".

Mike

But I distinctly remember hearing some Gilmore solos on the original LP. And the AMG review (I know, I know ...) says "Gilmore's strong blowing complements Morgan very well". My memory may be getting a little rusty anymore, though, and I don't have a copy here to check.

Gilmore does solo on the CD re-issue. There are JG solos on the title track, "Waltz for Ruth," and at least one other number. Several tracks, however, are brief & have fades, which indicates that other solos may have been edited out.

[MartyJazz]

Rooster, there's no way that restoring John Gilmore solos makes this CD a bigger seller. Its put out because its Blakey, and because its Morgan.

Personally, I like this album more than a lot of people seem to, but then again, I was once known as Mogie Man.

Well I for one have the LP and I can state with absolute certainty that if the Gilmore solos were restored on the CD, I'd buy it. Otherwise, since the session by no means is in the league of the earlier Blue Notes, I'll pass.

[HWright]

I picked this up too. On first listen, I didn't think much of it. I put it aside for a few days and then came back to it with fresher ears. It's certainly a comedown after the Wayne Shorter directed Blue Notes, but it's still a nice fairly straight ahead session with good work by most of the soloists, especially Hicks, Morgan and Fuller.

As for John Gilmore: There's the parodox about Gilmore, I think. Everyone likes his sound and knows about how he inspired Coltrane early on. However, everyone also knows that Gilmore was a Sun-Ra Arkestra lifer and that he lived communally with the rest of the group for most of his professional life. He was totally committed to Sun Ra's music. However, the Arkestra, being a kind of commune, was not really about soloing, it was more about vibes and total orchestral effects. On record and in concert with Sun Ra, Gilmore often ended up playing percussion, soloing at the same time as the rest of the group, etc. This frustrates people who would like to hear him just turn loose on a quartet session like Trane on his 1961-1964 Impulse dates, with the steady polyrythmic pulse of an Elvin Jones working behind him. However, outside of the Arkestra, Gilmore had much less passion and was also often compelled to adapt himself to the more straight ahead sounds of other bandleaders, such as Art Blakey. In these contexts Gilmore ends up sounding much like his fellow Chicago tenor (and sparing partner on the early BN date) Clifford Jordan. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but one wishes that he would sound more like himself, and apparently he was most himself when he was with the Arkestra.

That said, I think that Gilmore's work with Andrew Hill comes about as close to a happy medium as possible--more straight ahead context, but with an experimental side (see "Andrew!!!" and "Compulsion").

So, if you want to hear great Gilmore solos, don't buy an Art Blakey album. But if you want to hear Art swing with a good band, "'S Make It" is for you.

This reminds me of something that happened to me in the Tower Records in London some years ago. I was very into Andrew Hill at the time but just starting to check out Lee Morgan, Art Blakey and Hank Mobley. I picked up a copy of "No Room for Squares" and asked the guy at the till:

"How much of an impact does Andrew Hill have on this album?" and he replied

(read this in your head in a British accent):

"It's a HANK MOBLEY album!"

Edited June 25, 2004 by HWright

[Hardbopjazz]

Yes, Coltrane mentioned being influenced by Gilmore (around 1961) in an interview. That has led to a lot of discussion.

The problem you'll have with this record is that all (or just most? I forget) of the Gilmore solos are missing. At least one unedited track with a Gilmore solo was issued on a various artists LP - if Verve knows what they're doing, they'll include that in the CD reissue. Unfortunately, that's a big "if".

Mike

it's in the LPR series: what once was is what you get. So no restoration of solos or other missing pieces of the puzzle. Drat.

Excuse my French, by why the fuck release this on CD, if you're not going to restore the edited solos???

I mean, that's the only way a release like this has any serious merit (or at least as much merit it's capable of).

I sure the thing would sell better if people had the chance to hear more solos from Gilmore. But released with all those edits, I'm sure I'm just as likely to take a pass at it, as I would buy it. Release it in it's full form, and I'm seriously WAY MORE interested in hearing this thing.

WTF are they thinking????

I bought this not knowing they edited the solos. Would have like to have the full monty.

[DrJ]

I have been relistening to the Japanese LP repro version of this album since the US reissue peaked my interest in revisiting it. It's better than I remembered, but still a couple solid notches below the best Blakey on BN from around the same time. Much more relaxed, less intense and edgy than some of the sextet configuration albums done for BN. But still highly enjoyable, seems to have been pitched more at popularity and catchiness and less at pushing at hard bop boundaries from firmly within the mainstream.

Interesting too how much better RVG captured Blakey's drum sound - here, it sounds almost puny next to the massive yet nuanced sound on the Blue Notes.

Of interest: on a couple tracks, Gilmore really sounds a lot to me like he's emulating Shorter's quirky phrasing and rhythmic repetitive fragments...maybe asked to by the producer or leader or bandmates to maintain a greater thread of continuity with the earlier sides that included Shorter, or maybe doing it all on his own, sort of half as a respectful nod and half as a tweak on the nose to Shorter. Probably the latter.

Regardless of the motivation, this is unmistakeable to me on relistening. While I haven't heard TONS of Gilmore, I've heard enough to know that he usually didn't play in that fashion.