Bill Frisell

[AllenLowe]

MD - you're missing the point here - Clem has characterized me as an armchair critic, someone who talks but doesn't do - when this really applies to him. I was responding VERY SPECIFICALLY to his personal attack, nothing elitist about it - and you're right, Clines, who I don't like, is certainly worthy of discussion - but if Clem insists on always making it personal, than it will become personal - I'm sorry, but I'm just thoroughly sick of him and don't find him amusing anymore -

[AllenLowe]

let me add something here, per EGO and mention of affiliation - yes, I'm proud of my past associations and my credentials - I do think (and this is why it is relevant here) that many non-musician critics (certainly not all) are often snowed by certain kinds of players. And, like it or not, once you've spent time on the bandstand with someone, you really see what they can do and what they cannot do - for example, after playing with David Murray, I understand now what a mediocre and mannered player he is, with certain good musical ideas and certain talents which he has used to exploit a certain kind of public/jazz gullibility. And yes, this is only my opinion, but based on a certain kind of experience which is unique and which I will certainly emphasize if it helps to make my point - and the fact that you did not even grasp this, in relation to my response to Clem's attack (read it again) shows me you need to read a little more closely -

and I ain't no ex-musician -

Edited November 20, 2005 by AllenLowe

[AllenLowe]

now, per Clines - he is no fool and has learned certain modernist mannerisms which, like too-many post-modernist musicians, he works to death without any real understanding of what they mean, where they come from, or where they might go - and yes that's only my opinion. But it's based a a technical grasp of what he's trying to do and what he's actually doing -

[md655321]

Fair enough. Again, I am completely sympathetic to the reasons for your response to Clem. But that shouldn't come at the expense of a fair appraisal for Nels' work.

Not to continue the thread jack, but what exactly do you think Nels' is trying to do and why do you believe he fails at it? As a guitarist myself, I think Nels is completely successful and creating riveting and emotionally interesting music. I might not have quite your ears, so I'm interested in what you have to say about his playing, and especially the contexts you have heard him in that led you to this judgement.

However, I still think he rocks. (of course, maybe the rocking is the problem)

[AllenLowe]

I appreciate the fact that we can restore this to the realm of discussion, and not insult, and apologize if I got a little carried away, per Clem (hey, it's not pleasant being called a douche) - anyway, my response to Clines is to two of his performances that I attended ca. 2002-2003. I have not listened to the CDs, and if they reflect a real and thoughful musicianship, than I really trust your word on this - in person, he was loud and unintersting, unrelenting - and one might say the same about, say, Albert Ayler, but I honestly found Clines to be repetitive and what I would label formalist - sound on sound but in a way it has been done beofre, and for TOO long - I was really put off by what I found to be the SOS, especially in the new-age/newmusic/free jazz community. But let me do this, I'll pick up CD or two (recommned one or two, if possible) - and I'll go from there -

[AllenLowe]

just to add, per the fact that he rocks - I hold this in his favor, having lost almost all inerest, these days, in mainstream or even a lot of new music/jazz and having taken up the guitar for that very reason - I would sooner listen to Jeff Beck or 60's Link Wray, or Jimmy Reed, for that matter, than nearly any other (jazz) guitarist, though Frisell (to bring this back) is one of the few I really listen to and admire. Another guy I like is Brandon Ross -

[.:.impossible]

You are telling us the guy is a phony based on two performances you attended? You really haven't heard ANY of his albums?

And why call David Murray out on a thread about Bill Frisell? The counter-attack at Clem was understandable, but Nels (not Clines), and now a tenor saxophonist entirely unrelated to the topic of conversation? I'm just saying...

[7/4]

there's no doubting the dude's musicianship but Frisell in "tastey" mode drives me apeshit like few others, the mooted "country" licks/influence a freakin' nightmare to those of us who worship at the altars of Merle Travis, Jimmy Bryant, Don Rich & so many others... ALSO, even tho' it ain't easy to come up w/titles, i think it takes brass balls cum hubris to call a guitar album "East/West" when the ghost of Mike Bloomfield still haunts the omniverse. maybe if Bill broke a sweat again, played with similar aggro i'd care but... (i don't really care for naked city either tho' that's not HIS fault.) on the off chance anyone reading this doesn't know the REAL "east west"--

Nels Cline Lives!

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Would it make you happy if you knew that disk 1 is West and disk 2 is East?

[AllenLowe]

impossible: you mean, you object to the fact that I'm judging his playing based on what he plays when he's playing live? Excuse me? Do we need a little refresher on music, which is basically a live medium, ? and three hours of IN PERSON, incoherent performance, shouldn't give me enough to go on? He wasn't drunk - and yes, after hearing how terrible he sounded live, why should I want to go out and spend $15 for a CD?

Edited November 20, 2005 by AllenLowe

[AllenLowe]

and Clem, buzz off, you phony critic who's been credited in so many places that nobody knows what they are - and yes, I pay the musicians who work for me, does that make them whores? and sure, Ros Rudd and Julius Hemphill would work for anybody who'd pay 'em, sure, that's why they are side men on SO many CDs -

[AllenLowe]

Impossible - the reason I bring up Murray was because of the earlier question of the relevance of having worked with musicians who are being judged musically - I was just pointing out that this kind of familiarity sometimes allows a deeper understanding of a musicans's strengths and weaknesses - one you've done this you find out what they can and cannot do, and it's illuminating in a way that is just not possible without this kind of association.

[AllenLowe]

and Clem - if you don't want to say who you really are you ought to be off this forum, which is not here to mask your inadequacies or to highlight your talent for cultural name-dropping -

[AllenLowe]

I'm going to add a question to the moderators - why Clem is allowed to continue this name calling - he's already called me a douche and a jackoff - while others have been kicked off this forum for equivalent crimes -

[.:.impossible]

Believe me, I'm not trying to get in the middle of this spat, but I'm surprised that you are a musician and assume that Nels Cline is a one trick pony. I've certainly heard some Nels Cline recordings that I didn't like. To name a musician that also has nothing to do with this topic, I've heard some Wayne Shorter recordings that I didn't like. The fact of the matter is, Nels Cline plays a vast array of musics. I don't know what he was playing the nights you saw him, but I'm confident that you are jumping to conclusions in saying

Nels Cline is a complete bullshitter, IMHO - lotsa fashionable noise -

...and I know when a musician is faking, like Cline is. And I also play the guitar... I've seen him perform on several occassions; his interviews are impressive, he talks a good game, but has no reall understanding of the musical concepts he is trying to espouse.

...Clines, who I don't like...

We don't need a little refresher on music, which is basically a live medium. I don't imply anything other than the fact that three hours of IN PERSON performance really IS NOT enough to go on. I personally wouldn't have the balls to call someone a complete bullshitter based on three hours of performance. As your tone implies, you have a little more insight and insider knowledge on this subject than I.

I was just surprised to read that you were basing these accusations on a couple of performances. Knowing what I know about Nels Cline, I would venture to guess that he was experimenting with something new to him. Maybe it didn't work out. The guy obviously isn't faking, based on the vast array of recorded musics he has been a part of.

I would honestly suggest checking him out. I personally think he is a fantastic musician. Ribot was mentioned. I think the same of him, though I don't like all of his music.

I don't know much about Frisell. I'm hoping this thread continues in that direction. I'd be interested in more recommendations from everyone!

impossible: you mean, you object to the fact that I'm judging his playing based on what he plays when he's playing live? Excuse me? Do we need  a little refresher on music, which is basically a live medium, ? and three hours of IN PERSON, incoherent performance, shouldn't give me enough to go on? He wasn't drunk - and yes, after hearing how terrible he sounded live, why should I want to go out and spend $15 for a CD?

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[Chuck Nessa]

I'm going to add a question to the moderators - why Clem is allowed to continue this name calling - he's already called me a douche and a jackoff - while others have been kicked off this forum for equivalent crimes -

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Wrong.

[AllenLowe]

right -

at any rate -

to me, three hours of continuous playing should have been enough to allow him to show me something interesting - and I believe you would respond the same way. Go hear somebody and listen for this period of time (and go TWICE, as I did, hoping for SOMETHING) and tell me if you would go back for more, or pay out another penny or spend any more time if you were so completely disappointed - as I said if he could not do it in that amount of time, something is wrong - but, on the other hand, if he's made some good recordings, I'm willing to check it out again. But those nights he really was a B.S.'er, and my reaction is completely justified -

Edited November 20, 2005 by AllenLowe

[.:.impossible]

ok.

I would recommend, as a great place to start, checking out 'Requiem For Jack Kirby' under Gregg Bendian's name for some studio magic.

I believe this was recorded right around the time you saw him play. Most likely vastly different than what you heard.

Now, how's about some more Frisell recs?

[paul secor]

Nels Cline is a complete bullshitter, IMHO - lotsa fashionable noise -

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"IMHO" - Why are people so upset over an opinion? He's got his, you've got yours. In a week, no one will remember.

[AllenLowe]

back to Frisell - I like Blues Dream, and the trio with Elvin and Holland - also, his stuff with Paul Motian -

[paul secor]

and Clem - if you don't want to say who you really are you ought to be off this forum, which is not here to mask your inadequacies or to highlight your talent  for cultural name-dropping -

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If saying who you are was a criterion for posting, this board would have damn few members.

[connoisseur series500]

and Clem - if you don't want to say who you really are you ought to be off this forum, which is not here to mask your inadequacies or to highlight your talent  for cultural name-dropping -

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If saying who you are was a criterion for posting, this board would have damn few members.

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Not unless you're prone to personally attack people as Clem tends to do. So long as his real identity is shadowed as it is, he can continue the immature attacks.

[rostasi]

and Clem - if you don't want to say who you really are you ought to be off this forum, which is not here to mask your inadequacies or to highlight your talent  for cultural name-dropping -

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If saying who you are was a criterion for posting, this board would have damn few members.

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[marcello]

- for example, after playing with David Murray, I understand now what a mediocre and mannered player he is, with certain good musical ideas and certain talents which he has used to exploit a certain kind of  public/jazz gullibility.

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Allen, this I agree with ( and do many others ) and I'm not a musician.

Really Clem is harmless if you don't let him get under your skin. I enjoy both of your posts, to a great extent. Why don't you just ignore him instead of pleading for intervention?

I mean when it comes right down to it ( especially in a internet forum) it's just one man's opinion!

And I like Frisell, for/in the right situation.

[paul secor]

and Clem - if you don't want to say who you really are you ought to be off this forum, which is not here to mask your inadequacies or to highlight your talent  for cultural name-dropping -

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If saying who you are was a criterion for posting, this board would have damn few members.

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Not unless you're prone to personally attack people as Clem tends to do. So long as his real identity is shadowed as it is, he can continue the immature attacks.

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True in theory. In reality, this seems to be mainly about Allen and Clem. Clem knows how to push Allen's buttons, and Allen takes the bait every time. It's his decision whether he responds to Clem, and he chooses to.

[Larry Kart]

Agree with Allen about David Murray, with Clem about Frisell in his cinematic country bag (though I have to respect Frisell's work on Zorn's two "News for Lulu" albums), have never heard Nels Cline, and usually don't like it when people yell at each other here, unless one of them is a flaming jerk/nitwit or the yelling is also funny. Allen I know as a man, author, and musician, and while he can be edgy, he certainly is no jerk/nitwit and really knows a lot about a lot of stuff. Clem I know only from his posts. He knows, and/or professes to know, a lot about a lot of stuff, and often I think he does or might ... and sometimes it's just interesting to hear from his corner, in part because I'm left to guess about exactly where that corner might be located. (By contrast, I almost always know exactly where Allen is coming from.) But Clem also seems to be so involved in the art of territorial spraying that at times I wonder whether he's really that ticked off or just likes to play that role on TV. Where does that leave me?