Dizzy : The Life and Times of John Birks Gillespie

[ghost of miles]

riverrun, past Bird and Diz's, from swerve of horn to bend of note, brings us by a commodius vicus of recirculated breath back to Jelly Roll and Armstrong's.

Or something like that. Methinks it's time to head home.

[Christiern]

I haven't yet read the Shipton book, Does he mention the backstage fist fight between Dizzy and Valerie Wilmer?

No!

So if you want to do so, please go on ahead!

Be careful what you ask for! Here it is, Jim, in Val's own words. This is from her autobiography, Mama said there's be days like this: My Life in the Jazz World, published in 1989. Since they are both deceased, I substituted the names of Dizzy and T-Bone where Val had "Famous Mucisian" (or 'FM') and "Blues Guitar Pioneer" (or 'Mr. Blues'). I know their identities because Val revealed them to me back then. As I recall, Stevie was oner of Val's girlfriends.--Chris

• A few months after meeting Rex [stewart], I got into a physical fight with a Famous Musician (Dizzy Gillespie). Because my protagonist was and is such an important fugure in the music, the incident is still talked about and I take time to explain what happened only for the reason that historically women have been blamed for many events and situations for which men were actually responsible.
  
  Stevie and I were backstage at a concert, sharing a drink with a couple of musicians, one of whom was a blues guitar pioneer (T-Bone Walker). Everyone was accompanied by friends, apart from Dizzy, and I watched him roving around making several attempts to barge into other conversations. Then he lurched over to our table and leered. He said something insulting and T-Bone dismissed it: “Don’t pay him any attention, he’s not worth bothering with.” I had noticed a slight animosity between the two men on stage, Dizzy doing his best to distract attention from T-Bone during his solo spot. It was something he often did. It had earned him a reputation for clowning, although I have yet to meet anyone who worked with him who found the experience of being publicly belittled amusing.
  
  I went to the Ladies, emerging to find Dizzy blocking the corridor. I told him to let me through and he immediately abused me, verbally and physically, grabbing me between the legs and squeezing. I was enraged but managed to get past him. Back at the bar, T-Bone asked what had happened. I gave him an edited version and he apologised for his colleague’s behaviour. But the mood of the evening had been spoilt, and we decided to go home.
  
  Before leaving, though, I had to speak to another musician. I found him in a nearby large dressing-room, being interviewed. Motioning at him across the room, I backed away, only to collide with a huge punch aimed at my backside. Dizzy had come up behind me, cursing. This time I had had enough. “You do that again and I’ll punch you in your face,” I told him.
  
  At this point, Stevie came into the room. Dizzy made a grab for her, screaming about “Fucking bitches!” I gazed in astonishment as he pulled her down by her hair to waist level. There were three other men in the room, but they just froze, open-mouthed. I grabbed Dizzy’s arm and tried to drag him off, but he was a heavy man and wouldn’t be shifted. He was limbering up, drunkenly, with his other fist, so I had no other option but to punch him myself, in the face. With a bull-like roar, he turned on me and sent me flying across the room where I bounced to the floor down a stack of aluminium chairs. In a second, he was astride me, fist raised to strike. One of the onlookers was a local musician who had been drinking. Dizzy was his hero, yet even in his sozzled state, this was too much for him. He helped Stevie pull my assailant away. He staggered to his feet, but I had gone beyond fury by now. I had never really hit anyone before, but now I punched him, as hard as I could. He went sprawling, blood spurted from his nose and his lip. I know I could not have accomplished this pugilistic feat had he been sober, but that left hook stayed notorious for ages.
  
  As Dizzy lay on the floor, I looked around and saw T-Bone standing quietly in the doorway. “You women get out of here,” he told us, and we meekly obeyed. He shut the door and waited until the other man rose to his feet. Then, apparently, he knocked him down again. “That’s for hitting those women,” he told him. I found it ironic that the “countryboy” whom Dizzy had so despised should act the “gentleman,” while two other men, one of whom I had once regarded as a friend, looked on and did nothing while we were being attacked.
  
  On my way out, I bumped into the concert promoter. I was incoherent and shaking, my shirt sleeve soaked in blood. I shouted at him about what had happened, holding him responsible for conditions backstage. That night, apparently, Dizzy turned up at Ronnie Scott’s Club, waving a knife. He was looking, he said, “for those fucking bitches to cut their ass!”
  
  The truth of the incident was obvious to everyone else in the room, but experience had taught me that women were generally “in the wrong when anything untoward happened backstage. I was worried that I might be banned from future events. I took a deep breath and phoned the promoter. To my surprise, he was fairly apologetic, implying that this was not the first time he had had trouble with Dizzy.
  
  As the years went by, I assembled an interesting little dossier concerning Dizzy’s appalling behaviour towards women. He appears to delight in indecently assaulting women when their male partner is in the vicinity. Not so long ago, he allegedly punched a woman in the face at a reception in South America, much to the astonishment of the other musicians on the tour. I kept tabs on him mainly for my own amusement, but partly because of the continuing—and tedious—need to justify myself.
  

[AllenLowe]

I find this story very disturbing - another idol with feet of clay -

[MartyJazz]

OMG, Chris. What a horrible story, all the more so because of the beautiful positive image Diz retains in the minds of we jazz hero worshippers. Another of my jazz idols, Charles Mingus, has a notorious history but nothing as bad as what you via Valerie Wilmer has revealed. Incredible. I really don't want to believe this.

[Chuck Nessa]

Nothing as bad as Val's story but I did have an experience with Diz (over two days) that made listening to his music impossible for a couple of years.

Also, one time in the lobby of the Blackstone Hotel (in Chicago) Cab Calloway dropped trow to show a few of us the scar in his butt from a Dizzy knife attack.

Edited December 15, 2004 by Chuck Nessa

[Leeway]

In his memoir, Dizzy talks a lot about carrying a knife, something he apparently did over his lifetime, and about the various scrapes, fights and brawls he got into; of course, these are told from his point of view.

Even given the obvious bias towards putting everything in the best possible light, the recitation of these events in the memoirs begins to raise real doubts about Diz. In addition, Diz got hit with a number of paternity suits, and something of the attitude Val describes seeps through his account of these problems.

[AllenLowe]

come on Chuck, now we HAVE TO HEAR WHAT HAPPENED!

[Christiern]

... and as Chuck probably knows, the story is even more complex, and ironic.

[AllenLowe]

just to add a little bit of jazz lore - according to Curley Russell, Dizzy cut Calloway on the butt because it's a spot that takes forever to heal - it's like a cut on your palm, or any place that does a lot of bending -

Edited December 15, 2004 by AllenLowe

[Chuck Nessa]

come on Chuck, now we HAVE TO HEAR WHAT HAPPENED!

Sorry, "my version" of this reality reflects poorly on a couple of living folks and I don't want to stir that nest.

[sidewinder]

Regarding the Val Wilmer story mentioned by Chris A., I wonder if this could have happened during the 'JATP' tour of the UK back in either 1964 or 65, one of the concerts of which the BBC filmed for 'Jazz 625'. T-Bone has a featured solo set at this concert and Dizzy was nominal lead of the main lineup (which had Zoot Sims, Clark Terry and James Moody if my memory is correct). I think it was filmed either at Kilburn or Shepherds Bush Empire in London, I'll have to check.

Disturbing indeed..

Edited December 15, 2004 by sidewinder

[Christiern]

• By an odd coincidence, I just got off the phone with a couple of former Gillespie sidemen. I asked them about Dizzy carrying a knife--they said (in chorus, no less) always!. He cut Rodney Jones's hand once, I was told, and when I read them from Val's account, they said it was highly believable. They also told me that Moody carries a knife in his sock--guess he removes it at airports.
  
  One of the guys said, "all the old guys carry a knife." That reminded me of the fact that Alberta Hunter used to walk around carrying a shopping bag in each hand, but there was also a cloth in her right hand, and it held an ice pick! Similarly, I was talking to Billie Holiday in her dressing room at Pep's (in Philly) and she showed me a ball of Kleenex tissues on the makeup table--in it was hidden a razor blade.
  

BTW Sidewinder, I do recall Val telling me that Clark Terry was there, being interviewed by a very young Polish guy who had never before been around jazz musicians. His eyes almost popped out of his head, she told me.

Edited December 15, 2004 by Christiern

[Leeway]

I asked them about Dizzy carrying a knife--they said (in chorus, no less) always!.

That's pretty much what Dizzy says in "To Be or Not to Bop." He was not afraid to use it either. What actually worried Diz was getting his lip busted, so that he wouldn't be able to play.

[sidewinder]

Chris - I have the 'Jazz 625' episode on video (2 programs) and I will check to see if there are any hints in the body language etc. As I recall it, Teddy Wilson and Coleman Hawkins were also on the bill. From my recollection of viewing this one though I do sort of recall feeling that T-Bone's 'slot' was sort of 'out of kilter' with the rest of the show, although he put his heart and soul into the numbers he did. I'll get the video out tonight..

[chris olivarez]

Nothing will ever diminish Diz's music as far as I'm concerned but Diz the person got diminished in a hurry.

[JSngry]

Shipton did not go into specifics like these, but he did say that Dizzy drank a lot and was often unhappy with the direction his career had taken up until, roughly, the last decade of his life. So incidents of the type mentioned here do not surprise me.

Shipton does mention the most public of the paternity suits, the one involving singer Jeannie Bryson, who was actually Gillespie's daughter. I can also say that the one time I saw Dizzy in a club setting, in 1974, he had women all over him, and did not seem to be making any effort to put a limit on how far things would go.

None of this should really surprise anybody, I think. The "public" Gillespie of later years was a product of his embracing of the Baha'i faith, I think. The private Gillespie was something else, no doubt, full of demons not yet conquered. If Shipton is to be believed, the two conflicting Gillespies finally reached somewhat of a resolution in the final years of Dizzy's life. One certainly hopes so.

[marcello]

Does it really surprise everyone that Dizzy was a real human being?

I spent a fair amount of time with him from 1975 to 1983 and saw him in many situations, both private and public, with all types of people. He was by far more generous with his time with most people ( many musicans! ) and giving of his opinion and knowledge.

Did I see him get bent out of shape and angry? Yeah , sometimes. Did he carry a knife? You bet! A real nasty looking carpet cutter! Did he put up with a lot of shit from promoters and lames? God, yes! I believe most people could not stand the type of pressures that were part of his day to day life. He had to live up to great expectations ,and sometimes,he fell a little short. He knew what his place was in the history books and that was a HEAVY cross to bear! I could tell you stories, but who really cares? Does it lessen his contrubution? Does it make "Olinga" any less touching? Does it fade your memories of that searing trumpet? If it does, I feel sorry for you.

So forget the bullshit about him and the chinks in his personality; forgive and love him as you would a friend.

But I have to tell you to walk down the street with him was something! Alive and vital all of the time! I mean, just to look in a store window with him was a eye opening expierience. He loved life and people. He interacted with life in a way that made every moment intense and full of love.

That's his bottom line. That's his legacy. That's what drove him to be such a icon and innovator. That's how we should remember him. With LOVE.

[pryan]

I don't think we should gloss over the truth, if that's what you're getting at.

[EKE BBB]

Does it really surprise everyone that Dizzy was a real human being?

I spent a fair amount of time with him from 1975 to 1983 and saw him in many situations, both private and public, with all types of people. He was by far more generous with his time with most people ( many musicans! ) and giving of his opinion and knowledge.

Did I see him get bent out of shape and angry? Yeah , sometimes. Did he carry a knife? You bet! A real nasty looking carpet cutter! Did he put up with a lot of shit from promoters and lames? God, yes! I believe most people could not stand the type of pressures that were part of his day to day life. He had to live up to great expectations ,and sometimes,he fell a little short. He knew what his place was in the history books and that was a HEAVY cross to bear! I could tell you stories, but who really cares? Does it lessen his contrubution? Does it make "Olinga" any less touching? Does it fade your memories of that searing trumpet? If it does, I feel sorry for you.

So forget the bullshit about him and the chinks in his personality; forgive and love him as you would a friend.

But I have to tell you to walk down the street with him was something! Alive and vital all of the time! I mean, just to look in a store window with him was a eye opening expierience. He loved life and people. He interacted with life in a way that made every moment intense and full of love.

That's his bottom line. That's his legacy. That's what drove him to be such a icon and innovator. That's how we should remember him. With LOVE.

Well, I have to disagree.

I don´t like Charlie Parker or Billie Holiday less because of their drug addiction: their musical legacy is unquestionable and I love´em both.

But I want to know about their lives, to try to place their music, their recordings, in the appropiate context and circunstances.

And same for Dizzy. I´m not going to like him less because he had a knife or he could have been a MF. He was a wonderful trumpetist. But I want to KNOW the facts, and not only that he was a human being.

Cheers,

Agustín

[Christiern]

Does it really surprise everyone that Dizzy was a real human being?

I spent a fair amount of time with him from 1975 to 1983 and saw him in many situations, both private and public, with all types of people. He was by far more generous with his time with most people ( many musicans! ) and giving of his opinion and knowledge.

Did I see him get bent out of shape and angry? Yeah , sometimes. Did he carry a knife? You bet! A real nasty looking carpet cutter! Did he put up with a lot of shit from promoters and lames? God, yes! I believe most people could not stand the type of pressures that were part of his day to day life. He had to live up to great expectations ,and sometimes,he fell a little short. He knew what his place was in the history books and that was a HEAVY cross to bear! I could tell you stories, but who really cares? Does it lessen his contrubution? Does it make "Olinga" any less touching? Does it fade your memories of that searing trumpet? If it does, I feel sorry for you.

So forget the bullshit about him and the chinks in his personality; forgive and love him as you would a friend.

But I have to tell you to walk down the street with him was something! Alive and vital all of the time! I mean, just to look in a store window with him was a eye opening expierience. He loved life and people. He interacted with life in a way that made every moment intense and full of love.

That's his bottom line. That's his legacy. That's what drove him to be such a icon and innovator. That's how we should remember him. With LOVE.

• Marcello,
  
  I also spent time with Dizzy and saw him when he was being very pleasant and humorous. That does not in any way excuse the kind of behavior Val Wilmer described. Let me emphasize that I am not talking about his gay activity--that was his own business and I have not heard of any instance where he forced himself upon a man, but if he did, that was of course also wrong.
  
  I have known many artists who had to "put up with a lot of shit from promoters and lames," many who "had to live up to great expectations" and were aware of their place in history, but they did not feel a need to behave in a belligerent, anti-social, hurtful manner.
  
  I have had nothing but admiration for Dizzy's artistry since I first hear a recording by him, almost 60 years ago and his boorish behavior has not lessened my enjoyment of his music, so don't feel sorry for me.
  
  Pryan is right when he points out that we should not gloss over the truth. I don't care how great Dizzy's music was (and I think it was, indeed, great), going around and cutting people with a knife, sexually abusing others, etc. is abhorrent and inexcusable behavior that ought neither to be tolerated nor kept secret. Artistic talent is not a free pass to depraved conduct.
  

[sidewinder]

Well said !

[MartyJazz]

I also spent time with Dizzy and saw him when he was being very pleasant and humorous. That does not in any way excuse the kind of behavior Val Wilmer described. Let me emphasize that I am not talking about his gay activity--that was his own business and I have not heard of any instance where he forced himself upon a man, but if he did, that was of course also wrong.

Whoa! Gay activity??!!!! Please, does it get any worse than what's already been related on this thread? What's next, pedophilia, cruelty to animals, etc.? I don't think I can take much more.

[Joe G]

Whoa! Gay activity??!!!! Please, does it get any worse than what's already been related on this thread? What's next, pedophilia, cruelty to animals, etc.? I don't think I can take much more.

uh-oh...

[pryan]

I also spent time with Dizzy and saw him when he was being very pleasant and humorous. That does not in any way excuse the kind of behavior Val Wilmer described. Let me emphasize that I am not talking about his gay activity--that was his own business and I have not heard of any instance where he forced himself upon a man, but if he did, that was of course also wrong.

Whoa! Gay activity??!!!! Please, does it get any worse than what's already been related on this thread? What's next, pedophilia, cruelty to animals, etc.? I don't think I can take much more.

Are you saying that gay activity is a "negative" thing? Uh-oh is right, the proverbial can of worms may have been busted open...

[Joe G]

Maybe it was parody.