Coltrane At The Half Note

[Guest]

Hmm. I picked it up earlier in the week and have played it through a couple of times. I'm glad to have it and I really like the version of My Favorite Things, but unless one holds the view that everything Coltrane ever released is essential, I can't call this one essential. Musically, he sounds like he is already somewhere other than where his band is, and I don't think there's as much chemistry here as I've heard in this quartet on numerous other live dates. In this regard, this set doesn't even approach the synergy this quartet produced on the 1961 dates in the Vanguard box (though I'll admit that virtually everything would pale in comparison to that one). On top of this, the sound quality leaves something to be desired. I

The Coltrane/Monk disc is getting more time in my CD player this week, I must say.

[DukeCity]

Yeah I was making a reference to that Bird at the Bar Mitzvah and yeah I doubt he was playing tenor. Who cares when Tequila was written, do we have to be so literal? Just having a little fun. Is that so wrong?  I hope you survived it Glenn.

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Not to worry. I feel like I came through the whole thing unscathed (un-skeithed?).

Whadaya say, group hug...?

[Free For All]

Whadaya say, group hug...?

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[sheldonm]

I finally picked up my copy today and .....Wow! Other than some of the drop outs, I find these discs to be wonderful!!!

m~

[JSngry]

Whadaya say, group hug...?

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[DukeCity]

BTW I suprised that no one's mentioned  that according to the announcer they'd already been playing "One Down" for 30 minutes before the broadcast beings  which suggests that Trane is probably playing his second solo on the number.  (Unless Tyner took a 20 minute solo-- not impossible I guess.)

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Are there bootlegs of this performance floating around with the entire performance of this? Or are they all just radio transcriptions of this broadcast?

[Sundog]

If I'm remembering the tracks correctly (from other versions) this is a really good Afro Blue!

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McCoy is absolutely out of his mind on this one! The best example I've heard of in quite some time of passion meeting technique.

[CJ Shearn]

I just rebought the Vanguard set from BMG, wasn't ready for it a few years ago and sold it, however I am ready now. What was I thinking? Anyway I played my friend "One Down One Up" the other day and he was like "DAMN!" during the last stretch of Trane's solo where Elvin is just tearing behind him, great stuff.

Edited October 24, 2005 by CJ Shearn

[Michael Weiss]

I just rebought the Vanguard set from BMG, wasn't ready for it a few years ago and sold it, however I am ready now.  What was I thinking?  Anyway I played my friend "One Down One Up" the other day and he was like "DAMN!" during the last stretch of Trane's solo where Elvin is just tearing behind him, great stuff.

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As a friend of mine said, they should have included a set of Pampers with this disc.

[CJ Shearn]

LOL

[mrjazzman]

Is it just me, or does anybody else's mind start to wander halfway through ANY solo that lasts 24 minutes?  As great as much of this material is, I have a hard time concentrating for such long periods.  I do love the intesity of this stuff more than anything else.  And to hear these 4 masters at their height live in this manner is pretty breathtaking.

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no, it's not just you, i think his avant-garde period 40years later sounds like a bunch of noise, Coltrane Live At Birdland hooked me on jazz at the tender age of 15, i was even digging SOME of the avant-garde stuff, but like i said 40 years later it sounds like a bunch of noise and does a disservice to his GREAT hard bop period

[Free For All]

no, it's not just you, i think his avant-garde period 40years later sounds like a bunch of noise, Coltrane Live At Birdland hooked me on jazz at the tender age of 15, i was even digging SOME of the avant-garde stuff, but like i said 40 years later it sounds like a bunch of noise and does a disservice to his GREAT hard bop period

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It's funny, there was a time when I would have agreed with you, but I feel like I've grown to appreciate later Trane much more than I used to. I feel the content of his solo on ODOU is harmonically and thematically very rich.

Do I listen to this period of Trane all the time? No, it can be exhausting (but exhilarating). most of the time I need to be in a specific mood.

I also love hardbop Trane, but I don't think his later recordings do a "disservice" to his earlier stuff. I'm not sure I understand what you mean by that. Do you feel that way about Miles? Freddie Hubbard? Ornette?

[mrjazzman]

Hmm.  I picked it up earlier in the week and have played it through a couple of times.  I'm glad to have it and I really like the version of My Favorite Things, but unless one holds the view that everything Coltrane ever released is essential, I can't call this one essential.  Musically, he sounds like he is already somewhere other than where his band is, and I don't think there's as much chemistry here as I've heard in this quartet on numerous other live dates.  In this regard, this set doesn't even approach the synergy this quartet produced on the 1961 dates in the Vanguard box (though I'll admit that virtually everything would pale in comparison to that one).  On top of this, the sound quality leaves something to be desired.  I   

The Coltrane/Monk disc is getting more time in my CD player this week, I must say.

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i agree with you 100%.........

[mrjazzman]

no, it's not just you, i think his avant-garde period 40years later sounds like a bunch of noise, Coltrane Live At Birdland hooked me on jazz at the tender age of 15, i was even digging SOME of the avant-garde stuff, but like i said 40 years later it sounds like a bunch of noise and does a disservice to his GREAT hard bop period

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It's funny, there was a time when I would have agreed with you, but I feel like I've grown to appreciate later Trane much more than I used to. I feel the content of his solo on ODOU is harmonically and thematically very rich.

Do I listen to this period of Trane all the time? No, it can be exhausting (but exhilarating). most of the time I need to be in a specific mood.

I also love hardbop Trane, but I don't think his later recordings do a "disservice" to his earlier stuff. I'm not sure I understand what you mean by that. Do you feel that way about Miles? Freddie Hubbard? Ornette?

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i don't know, i guess im getting older, but nowadays im entrenched in hard bop probably because hard bop is an offspring of the blues and the blues can never be dated. as we all know it's a matter of opinion and listening taste. believe me, I LOVE trane but in 2005 the avant-garde thing just sounds dated to me. ornette i could never get into same with eric dolphy can't get into his solos maybe with the exception of his work on the blues and the abstract truth. blue train, miles work prestige and columbia, bethlehem work, giant steps, crescent, the prestige box, the atlantic box, that's the trane i love, of course i love coltrane live at birdland, live at the village vanguard, but the stuff after elvin and mccoy left(they got tired of the unstructured noise)i can do without...........

[mrjazzman]

no, it's not just you, i think his avant-garde period 40years later sounds like a bunch of noise, Coltrane Live At Birdland hooked me on jazz at the tender age of 15, i was even digging SOME of the avant-garde stuff, but like i said 40 years later it sounds like a bunch of noise and does a disservice to his GREAT hard bop period

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It's funny, there was a time when I would have agreed with you, but I feel like I've grown to appreciate later Trane much more than I used to. I feel the content of his solo on ODOU is harmonically and thematically very rich.

Do I listen to this period of Trane all the time? No, it can be exhausting (but exhilarating). most of the time I need to be in a specific mood.

I also love hardbop Trane, but I don't think his later recordings do a "disservice" to his earlier stuff. I'm not sure I understand what you mean by that. Do you feel that way about Miles? Freddie Hubbard? Ornette?

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MAYBE that was a bad choice of words maybe i should have said that it takes attention away from his hard bop period......

[ep1str0phy]

Is it just me, or does anybody else's mind start to wander halfway through ANY solo that lasts 24 minutes?  As great as much of this material is, I have a hard time concentrating for such long periods.  I do love the intesity of this stuff more than anything else.  And to hear these 4 masters at their height live in this manner is pretty breathtaking.

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no, it's not just you, i think his avant-garde period 40years later sounds like a bunch of noise, Coltrane Live At Birdland hooked me on jazz at the tender age of 15, i was even digging SOME of the avant-garde stuff, but like i said 40 years later it sounds like a bunch of noise and does a disservice to his GREAT hard bop period

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With all due respect (Mr. JM), I must disagree with your final sentence. Granted, late Coltrane isn't for everyone--and there are certainly a number of individuals (musicians, critics, etc.) who sympathize with you. However, to say that his "avant-garde" material does a "disservice" to his hard bop period is a little much. Coltrane's later work certainly eschews some of the less alienating conventions of early 60's, but--outside of sheer subjectivity--there is little foundation to outright dismiss it--much less as a "disservice".

At the time of his death, Coltrane was moving toward unprecedented levels of instrumental virtuosity, straining known limits of stamina and harmonic complexity. Regardless, of taste, few well-schooled musicians would find technical fault in Trane's last recordings. To be fair, the final Trane Quintet did not have nearly enough polish or stage time to approach the rapport of the "Classic Quartet". By the end of his life, Coltrane was probably on his way toward creating a new language, a process that was (sadly) cut short. Gestative or not, this later material is invaluable in developing a comprehensive concept of Coltrane as an improviser and bandleader.

Once again, this material isn't for everyone--and I'm not about to hassle anyone into a more "pro-avant" mindest. But please--everyone--remain mindful of the fine line between opinion and sweeping statement. Vague debasement does a disservice to Trane.

Edit to say I posted before reading mrjazzman's last post (kudos, BTW)... leaving this here for posterity (and further debate?).

Edited October 25, 2005 by ep1str0phy

[Guy Berger]

i think his avant-garde period 40years later sounds like a bunch of noise, Coltrane Live At Birdland hooked me on jazz at the tender age of 15, i was even digging SOME of the avant-garde stuff, but like i said 40 years later it sounds like a bunch of noise and does a disservice to his GREAT hard bop period

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It doesn't seem like you are listening carefully.

Guy

[Guy Berger]

Musically, he sounds like he is already somewhere other than where his band is, and I don't think there's as much chemistry here as I've heard in this quartet on numerous other live dates.  In this regard, this set doesn't even approach the synergy this quartet produced on the 1961 dates in the Vanguard box (though I'll admit that virtually everything would pale in comparison to that one).

Different strokes for different strokes, but I have a fundamental disagreement with the "already somewhere other than where his band is" claim. Maybe once Trane started adding more drummers and horns to his band, Elvin and particularly McCoy started losing touch with the music. But on the quartet recordings from 1965, these guys are 100% engaged in the music that Trane was creating. You can hear it all the way up through Sun Ship and First Meditations -- they're exactly where the music demands. I mean, listen to "One Up One Down" -- this might even be a more milestone performance for Elvin than for Trane!

Second, and a point worth emphasizing -- a listen to any of the longer +25 minute versions of "Impressions" and "Mr. PC" from the 1963 European tour (look at discs 5-7 of the Pablo box) show that this music was not exactly unprecedented. Trane was pushing his music pretty far out even back then. Intense, avant-garde duets with Elvin on those tunes were the order of the day. Yeah, the Half Note and Antibes performances are further out, but not MUCH further out. Very much another step on the same path.

Guy

[jazzbo]

I hear it the way Guy does. . . .

[CJ Shearn]

ditto. To me extreme out playing is Peter Brotzmann, or some of those EAI things but Trane always had something to say in the blues.

[John Tapscott]

I decided not to go the internet route for this one and had my local Cd shop order it for me. Anyway, it came today, - we're not always the swiftest at getting new releases in Canada. (I notice they got in about 8 copies - doubt they'll sell that many in 2 years). Anyway, I'm listening to OUOD for the first time (never had the bootleg). Holy smokes! This is incredible, absolutely incredible music. Very challenging, intense, spine-tingling. Nearly superhuman, I would say. Usually I can muti-task when I'm listening to music, but I'm finding it hard to do anything other than listen with this one.

P.S. I'm amazed at how quickly the 27 minutes of OUOD goes by. Almost like time is compressed somewhow. Weird.

Edited December 9, 2005 by John Tapscott

[John L]

i don't know, i guess im getting older, but nowadays im entrenched in hard bop probably because hard bop is an offspring of the blues and the blues can never be dated. as we all know it's a matter of opinion and listening taste. believe me, I LOVE trane but in 2005 the avant-garde thing just sounds dated to me. ornette i could never get into same with eric dolphy can't get into his solos maybe with the exception of his work on the blues and the abstract truth. blue train, miles work prestige and columbia, bethlehem work, giant steps, crescent, the prestige box, the atlantic box, that's the trane i love, of course i love coltrane live at birdland, live at the village vanguard, but the stuff after elvin and mccoy left(they got tired of the unstructured noise)i can do without...........

I can understand where you are coming from as a matter of taste. On the other hand, I feel more blues in Ornette, Dolphy, and late Coltrane than I do in most hard bop. Like it or not, Ornette, Dolphy, and even late Coltrane are just as much offspring of the blues as mainstream hard bop. In fact, that is one reason why it is often easier for me to related to their stuff than to other avant garde jazz that is more distant from the blues.

Edited December 9, 2005 by John L

[sal]

quote]

Different strokes for different strokes, but I have a fundamental disagreement with the "already somewhere other than where his band is" claim. Maybe once Trane started adding more drummers and horns to his band, Elvin and particularly McCoy started losing touch with the music. But on the quartet recordings from 1965, these guys are 100% engaged in the music that Trane was creating. You can hear it all the way up through Sun Ship and First Meditations -- they're exactly where the music demands. I mean, listen to "One Up One Down" -- this might even be a more milestone performance for Elvin than for Trane!

Guy

[John Tapscott]

I am now on my 3rd listen. As challenging as this music is, as soon as it ends I find myself wanting to listen to it again immediately. That to me is a sign of a very special recording. For me, this is probably the album of the year. Already this is one of my favorite 'Trane recordings. I really like the way McCoy is miked "hot", which is not always the case with 'Trane's live recordings.

[clifford_thornton]

I like it.