David Ayers Posted July 25, 2006 Report Share Posted July 25, 2006 (edited) Since Ullrich would have won this Tour (IMHO) I would quite like to know the ins and outs of this doping scandal I don't get it. I read that it involved withdrawing, freezing, then reintroducing blood. But is that 'doping'? And how do the effects differ from an oxygen tent? Is that the whole story? And why is it thought that Ullrich and co. are so definitely guilty? Brownie? Anybody? Edited July 25, 2006 by David Ayers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
couw Posted July 25, 2006 Report Share Posted July 25, 2006 some background on the case in this wiki article. and some on blood doping in this wiki article. Basically, blood was tapped from the athletes, treated with EPO to stimulate growth of red blood cells and then frozen to be reintroduced to the athlete's blood (which will have rebuilt its missing blood cells in the meantime) shortly before needed. As the EPO would no longer be detectable and needle pricks are commonplace with these guys being medically checked like nothing else, this form of doping can not be proven once applied. The effect is indeed the same as training in a oxygen tent or at high altitudes, but it's stronger and easier to obtain. The files of the Spanish police contain recordings of phone talks and copies of SMS messages of the bad doc Fuentes and Ulrich's directeur sportif, Rudy Pevenage. It seems most of the evidence is circumstantial, but enough for T-Mobile to sack their flag bearer. The fact that Ullrich did not (yet) undergo a DNA test to prove that this is not his blood did not help his case either. There is a possibility that he was set up and that he indeed does not know what happened to his blood, but this seems highly unlikely. The bad doc is already on record stating that the names that were spilt are just the tip of the iceberg. Also, many other branches of sport are involved, not just cycling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Ayers Posted July 25, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 25, 2006 Blimey O'Riley. Thanks John. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brownie Posted July 25, 2006 Report Share Posted July 25, 2006 The bad doc is already on record stating that the names that were spilt are just the tip of the iceberg. Also, many other branches of sport are involved, not just cycling. Soccer players are also reportedly being involved in the blood tapping situation. Zinedine Zidane's name has been mentioned. But the soccer governing bodies keep away from investigating this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
couw Posted July 25, 2006 Report Share Posted July 25, 2006 The bad doc is already on record stating that the names that were spilt are just the tip of the iceberg. Also, many other branches of sport are involved, not just cycling. Soccer players are also reportedly being involved in the blood tapping situation. Zinedine Zidane's name has been mentioned. But the soccer governing bodies keep away from investigating this. still an investigation on illegal substances in football wouldn't be a luxury. I have a strong hunch some of the players are doped till their brains stop thinking. Some of the crazed looks on those faces speak volumes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brownie Posted July 25, 2006 Report Share Posted July 25, 2006 Some of the crazed looks on those faces speak volumes. I'm reasonably clean but I would look even more crazed after playing for more than two hours in scorching heat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
couw Posted July 25, 2006 Report Share Posted July 25, 2006 Some of the crazed looks on those faces speak volumes. I'm reasonably clean but I would look even more crazed after playing for more than two hours in scorching heat bah humbug! that was the saddest excuse they thought up for this years abominable quality of the games. "hey, it's hot!" "oh, let's play BORING then." as long as some guys still have the energy to kick an oponent in the eggs (twice) after the game, I think some investigations are in order. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonym Posted July 25, 2006 Report Share Posted July 25, 2006 It's an age old technique (a Belgian soigneur once told me and a few others that Mercx used to visit the Swiss Alps to change his blood with a young boy...now whatever this meant I'm sure there's an element of extraction/re-infusion there) but coupled with today's processes (adding EPO, like John said, to stimulate red cell prodution) and altitude training, the rider's blood consistancy an become treacle-like. We've all heard stories of teams being woken at some small hour to ride around hotel car parks for fear of them dying in their sleep....now that's why. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clifford_thornton Posted July 26, 2006 Report Share Posted July 26, 2006 Well, it's been going on for years, they're all doped - even the domestiques at the back of the pack. Sacking Ullrich won't clean up the problem; nor would sacking bodybuilders who test positive for steroids. I personally think a safer type of performance-enhancing drug should be legalized and professional cycling can get on with its existence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Ayers Posted July 26, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 26, 2006 I see they have just announced that an as yet unnamed rider in the Tour has tested positive... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clifford_thornton Posted July 26, 2006 Report Share Posted July 26, 2006 Hint: he rides for Phonak... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Ayers Posted July 27, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 27, 2006 Hint: he rides for Phonak... Did a little bird tell you? So far I can't find anyone saying that... YIKES! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cayetano Posted July 27, 2006 Report Share Posted July 27, 2006 Hint: he rides for Phonak... Did a little bird tell you? So far I can't find anyone saying that... YIKES! Spanish radio station and online newspaper say that. Read this L'Equipe article: http://www.lequipe.fr/Cyclisme/20060727_110810Dev.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brownie Posted July 27, 2006 Report Share Posted July 27, 2006 Hint: he rides for Phonak... Did a little bird tell you? So far I can't find anyone saying that... YIKES! Spanish radio station and online newspaper say that. Read this L'Equipe article: http://www.lequipe.fr/Cyclisme/20060727_110810Dev.html French media indeed hinting at Landis by now! He pulled out of a Dutch race yesterday and will be out of the Jyske Bank Grand Prix race in Denmark today! Would be more bad cycling news if he is out of those races because of the doping story Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cayetano Posted July 27, 2006 Report Share Posted July 27, 2006 (edited) Hint: he rides for Phonak... Did a little bird tell you? So far I can't find anyone saying that... YIKES! Spanish radio station and online newspaper say that. Read this L'Equipe article: http://www.lequipe.fr/Cyclisme/20060727_110810Dev.html French media indeed hinting at Landis by now! He pulled out of a Dutch race yesterday and will be out of the Jyske Bank Grand Prix race in Denmark today! Would be more bad cycling news if he is out of those races because of the doping story Very sad if that's true, even with a spanish new winner of the Tour. Spanish media say Landis is the main suspect and the radio station Cadena Ser mention "testosterona" is the doping substance. http://www.abc.es/20060727/deportes-deport...0607271333.html http://www.cadenaser.com/articulo/deportes...srcsrdep_1/Tes/ Edited July 27, 2006 by cayetano Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Ayers Posted July 27, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 27, 2006 Hint: he rides for Phonak... Did a little bird tell you? So far I can't find anyone saying that... YIKES! Spanish radio station and online newspaper say that. Read this L'Equipe article: http://www.lequipe.fr/Cyclisme/20060727_110810Dev.html French media indeed hinting at Landis by now! He pulled out of a Dutch race yesterday and will be out of the Jyske Bank Grand Prix race in Denmark today! Would be more bad cycling news if he is out of those races because of the doping story Very sad if that's true, even with a spanish new winner of the Tour. Spanish media say Landis is the main suspect and the radio station Cadena Ser mention "testosterona" is the doping substance. http://www.abc.es/20060727/deportes-deport...0607271333.html http://www.cadenaser.com/articulo/deportes...srcsrdep_1/Tes/ Thanks guys. It says that testosterone can be legally prescribed - maybe there is a loophole for Landis? Looks pretty miserable for the whole sport. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.A.W. Posted July 27, 2006 Report Share Posted July 27, 2006 BBC: Landis gives positive drugs test Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brownie Posted July 27, 2006 Report Share Posted July 27, 2006 Say it ain't so Floyd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjobbe Posted July 27, 2006 Report Share Posted July 27, 2006 I guess he -Floyd- believed he can get away with it, so for the future: let the best doctors win ! Cheers, Tjobbe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brownie Posted July 27, 2006 Report Share Posted July 27, 2006 Floyd learned his lessons from his former boss Lance Armstrong! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Ayers Posted July 27, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 27, 2006 Floyd learned his lessons from his former boss Lance Armstrong! Uh... well he got found out, so it seems he didn't learn them that well... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brownie Posted July 27, 2006 Report Share Posted July 27, 2006 Floyd learned his lessons from his former boss Lance Armstrong! Uh... well he got found out, so it seems he didn't learn them that well... The Phonak team does not have the same budgets that the Armstrong teams had! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Ayers Posted July 27, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 27, 2006 Floyd learned his lessons from his former boss Lance Armstrong! Uh... well he got found out, so it seems he didn't learn them that well... The Phonak team does not have the same budgets that the Armstrong teams had! He didn't learn much from Tyler Hamilton either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BERIGAN Posted July 27, 2006 Report Share Posted July 27, 2006 Damn! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonym Posted July 27, 2006 Report Share Posted July 27, 2006 Well, it's been going on for years, they're all doped - even the domestiques at the back of the pack. Sacking Ullrich won't clean up the problem; nor would sacking bodybuilders who test positive for steroids. I personally think a safer type of performance-enhancing drug should be legalized and professional cycling can get on with its existence. Remember, those domestiques 'at the back of the pack' are race winners in their own right, many excel in other types of race and possibly all of them were big amateur stars before they made the leap to pro contracts with these top teams. One could dig a lot further down the UCI rankings and still find doping (whether it be 'doping' in the re-infusion sense or simply charging with hormones, steriods and stimulants) endemic. As for a 'safer' type of performance enhancing drug....it'll never exist because there'll always be something bigger, badder and more potent calling riders to the dark side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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