Shawn

Hot Dog Appreciation thread

107 posts in this topic

Hot Dog may or may not really be the shit, but comparing it to 'real olde' blues and hillbilly just muddys the waters...the only relevant standard of authenticity is whether Lou is being true to himself and that's not necessarily black and white. And even then that doesn't tell you whether Hot Dog is a particularly good example of this sorta thing in general or relative to Lou's other albums in that groove. Say It Loud was a great step forward for black people in America and good for the nation as a whole but I silll find much of the music made in it's wake kinda sophmorically selfconscious and prefer much of the music made earlier in the decade that wasn't constricted by what anyone thought it meant to be black and proud. Yes I know that's presumptuous and potentially offensive, but I have examined the evidence and thought about it as best I can for four decdes now... I'm just now relistening to the title cut from Hot Dog and "Grits & Gravy" from the Cordon Blue compilation (songs about food, soul & otherwise) and it's pretty clear to me which is more authentic and better music in just about every way except, maybe, dance-abilty.

Please forgive any tone of annoyance in this, it's mostly selfdirected for not being able to express myself any better...

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"the only relevant standard of authenticity is whether Lou is being true to himself "

well, by this standard than Kenny G's work is great as well - no one is truer to their real self than Mr. Gorelick

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Not to go all neo-marxist on you but the concept of 'false consciousness' seems relevant here, inotherwords no ones real self is that vapid (I, but the way, heard Kenny when he was Jeff Lorbers sideman many years ago, he wasn't great but he wasn't horrible either).

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I'm not sure - Kenny sounds pretty vapid in all the interviews I've read-

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I'm not sure - Kenny sounds pretty vapid in all the interviews I've read-

I've only read one - but it was from the Onion.

MG

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in my day the accusation of "false consciousness" indicated a lack of understanding of one's rightful or correct sociological place; like a black person who wasn't consciously black enough, or a working person who had little understanding of his own class status. While there was often some real truth in such things (as in George Wallace's large working-class following) this perspective did not allow for imagination or certain kinds of historical transcendence. The result was a kind of schematicism, an expectation that people follow certain social scripts. As I mentioned before, my belief is that most art describes an alternative history; so I have no problem with a rich guy playing the blues, for one example. And I don't think the middle class can't be funky, only that it usually fails for lack of imagination -

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-which is why I used "false consciousness" with some trepidation, since it's no doubt been misused more often than not, my point was only that no one's real life is as bland as that blank nothingness of a Kenny G recording and why would you want to imagine an alternate reality that was like that? But working in record stores whowed me that lots of otherwise nice if not exactly hip people, black and white, eat that shit up. In a world that contains evrything from Kenny to Coltrane, I think Lou is well to the good side, even if Hot Dog is far from his best...

just trying to gain perspective, Dana

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no problem with it here - I just think the concept of false consciousness tends to deny imagination at times (brings me back to 1973 and debating politics with campus radicals who thought I was a lost and foundering liberal; well, most of them became business majors) - nothing wrong with the idea of false consciousness because it does explain certain kinds of political behavior; only problem is when it becomes doctrine.

sorta like Crouch accusing Anthony Davis of not being black enough - or Cynthia Ozick who attacked certain Jewish writers for not being Jewish enough. It imposes a certain sociological burden which can be unfair. and it leads, on racial issues, to all kinds of skewed logic (thinking of Roy Eldridge's blindfold test in which he misidentified a number of musicians by race, AFTER saying he could always tell the difference between a black and white musician).

ultimately for great musicians there is no real simple sociological explanation - for Bird, for Ornette; products of their enviornment, yes, but both much more and much less. If sociology was the answer there would be 10,000 Charlie Parkers and 1,000 Julius Hemphills and 20,000 Louis Armstrongs.

Donaldson is a fine musician, just lacking in that extra dimension -

Edited by AllenLowe

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Upon relistening to "Hot Dog" (the tune not the whole album), I thought the most intersting/arresting solo was Melvin Sparks, even if (or maybe because) it was like a v. elaborate version of Lowell fulson's on "Tramp" - which is also how I hear some of Jimmy Ponder's work in this period, when they don't sound like Grant Green..

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I don't claim to be a "jazz expert," or even to know what it means to be a "jazz expert," but out of all the BN albums I've heard, this is one of my very least favorites (along with The Scorpion). That said, LD in general kind of loses me after 1960 or so.

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jimmy_piersall_autograph.jpg

I took Chuck's posting of Jimmy Piersall's card to mean, "You're nuts!"

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Upon relistening to "Hot Dog" (the tune not the whole album), I thought the most intersting/arresting solo was Melvin Sparks, even if (or maybe because) it was like a v. elaborate version of Lowell fulson's on "Tramp" - which is also how I hear some of Jimmy Ponder's work in this period, when they don't sound like Grant Green..

I'd say Melvin's is the "weakest" solo of the bunch. Sorry to disagree, still dig his solo a LOT. But between Lou, Blue and Charlie...yeah Melvin sounded maybe the least interesting to me. That said, it's not a contest....still think Lou and Charlie make the biggest impact and either extreme of the spectrum...from guts to glory.

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(thinking of Roy Eldridge's blindfold test in which he misidentified a number of musicians by race, AFTER saying he could always tell the difference between a black and white musician).

That's the famous one, but do you remember Gene Russell's (founder of Black Jazz Records) BFT from, like, 72, 73, somewhere in there? He made the same claim and pretty much nailed the results, down to saying that Thad/Mel sounded like "an integrated band".

I find it interesting that everybody who cares remembers Eldridge's BFT but not Russell's...

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(thinking of Roy Eldridge's blindfold test in which he misidentified a number of musicians by race, AFTER saying he could always tell the difference between a black and white musician).

That's the famous one, but do you remember Gene Russell's (founder of Black Jazz Records) BFT from, like, 72, 73, somewhere in there? He made the same claim and pretty much nailed the results, down to saying that Thad/Mel sounded like "an integrated band".

I find it interesting that everybody who cares remembers Eldridge's BFT but not Russell's...

Indeed. But what's even more interesting is that there's one guy, who's documented, once, with a specific bunch of records, as having managed this and there's another guy, who's documented, once, with a different specific bunch of records, as not having managed it and people think that either of these events demonstrates something.

MG

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Exactly. All it demonstrates is that some days are better than others. :g

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well, not really; we can't compare the two tests unless we know what they were listening to; sorta like if you gave me two recordings, Sonny Sharrock and the 1910 Fruitgum COmpany; just because I id'd the white guys doesn't mean the same as if someone else mis-id'd Gene Quill and Ernie Henry - different era, different styles; so we would have to know who the bands were with the second (Black Jazz) test -

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*shrugs*

This was one of the first LD albums I bought (along with the Scorpion) and, though I haven't listened to it in years, I loved it. Plus, this was my "gateway" to the older LD sides and I used this record to hip a lot of people to jazz, though this record is anything but purist. Nowadays, I'm more likely to throw on Blues Walk if I want some LD. (I really dig Lush Life too, maybe that one straddles the fence for some on this thread?)

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allright, now I'm convinced - my next CD will be an organ-trio recording:

"Lowe plays Lou" - or: "White Like Me: The Funky Honky." or "The Soul-Way of the O-Fay."

now if I can only get Alfredson to take a vacation in Maine -

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allright, now I'm convinced - my next CD will be an organ-trio recording:

"Lowe plays Lou" - or: "White Like Me: The Funky Honky." or "The Soul-Way of the O-Fay."

now if I can only get Alfredson to take a vacation in Maine -

I'm looking forward to it. Be careful not to use the wrong syntax, or Jim will have your guts for garters :D

MG

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allright, now I'm convinced - my next CD will be an organ-trio recording:

"Lowe plays Lou" - or: "White Like Me: The Funky Honky." or "The Soul-Way of the O-Fay."

now if I can only get Alfredson to take a vacation in Maine -

My wife went to undergrad in Maine (Portland).

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...how did this thread turn into an "Allen Lowe" thread? No disrespect, but you've turned a discussion about Lou Donaldson's Hot Dog, an album and artist you don't dig,... into an ongoing conversation with yourself about yourself. Can we get back to Hot Dog yet?!

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Interesting to note. Lou always says in his show that the origin of Alligator Boogaloo was that is was something thrown in at the end of the session after they got done with what they really came to record...a throwaway in effect. However...note what take Alligator Boogaloo is.... Guess it's a better story that way. ;)

1. 1867 tk.4 One Cylinder Blue Note BLP 4263

2. 1868 tk.6 Aw Shucks! -

3. 1869 tk.8 Alligator Bogaloo Blue Note 45-1934, BLP 4263

4. 1870 tk.15 Rev. Moses -

5. 1871 tk.17 I Want A Little Girl Blue Note BLP 4263

6. 1872 tk.18 The Thang -

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Interesting to note. Lou always says in his show that the origin of Alligator Boogaloo was that is was something thrown in at the end of the session after they got done with what they really came to record...a throwaway in effect. However...note what take Alligator Boogaloo is.... Guess it's a better story that way. ;)

1. 1867 tk.4 One Cylinder Blue Note BLP 4263

2. 1868 tk.6 Aw Shucks! -

3. 1869 tk.8 Alligator Bogaloo Blue Note 45-1934, BLP 4263

4. 1870 tk.15 Rev. Moses -

5. 1871 tk.17 I Want A Little Girl Blue Note BLP 4263

6. 1872 tk.18 The Thang -

Yep. And recording "One cylinder" first really shows where the priorities for that album were. Freddie McCoy, though he's now underrated, was the leader of the Acid Jazz movement (though it didn't have that name yet) at that time (well, there was virtually only his band in it).

The first three tracks were all in the Acid Jazz groove. The other three were much more the sort of thing that Lou had been doing for some time - he'd done "The thang" on "Fried Buzzard" a few years before and I would be surprised if "I want a little girl" hadn't been a regular part of his book for years. And "Rev Moses" is kind of a Horace Silver type number, and not unrelated to "Good gracious" and "Signiyin'".

MG

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tyhats cool how the whole lp is like one take of ea....or am i reading that wrong?

I think so. The only track they got down in one take was "The thang". "Rev Moses" took 7. But if you take those seven out, they got the other five done in 11 takes, which is pretty good, really, I should think.

MG

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