On (or rather, off) stage etiquette

[Rosco]

Last week I played a gig with a quintet (I was on tenor). A couple of the tunes were videoed by someone in the audience. During the trumpet and piano solos, I did what I usually do when I'm not playing.

I left the stage.

This, to me, seems perfectly reasonable. My philosophy is if you're not playing get the hell off the stage (this may be a Miles-ism I picked up along the way- ironically, we were doing an all-Miles set). Usually, I stand off to one side to listen to and watch the other musicians, check out the sound, maybe drink some water or wipe away some brow sweat, then come back on when it's time for my solo or the closing head.

I showed the video to two friends of mine, who had two very different reactions, both of which surprised me.

The first is a singer with some experience of jazz gigs. She was quite surprised to see me leave the stage and said she'd never seen anyone do that before. However, she said she totally got why I would do it and said she wished she'd thought of it during her own performances, where she admits she gets self-conscious just standing there while the other musicians are playing.

The second friend is a non-musician, whose main experience of live music is watching rock gigs. He was nothing short of horrified and told me in no uncertain turns that it looked arrogant and disrespectful to the other musicians.

I see it as totally the opposite. If I'm standing onstage and not playing then I'm really just distracting attention from the people who are. If the pianist is taking his solo, then the trio are doing the work. Let the audience watch them! The first friend liked that I was letting the other musicians be the focus of attention. The second thought it showed a lack of professionalism.

I admit I was suprised that anyone commented on it at all. It never struck me that it would be something in any way noteworthy, let alone controversial.

So, any opinions on this? I thought it was more common than it seems to be. Is this something you see at gigs? What is your reaction when it happens? Is there a different perspective on this between audiences at jazz and rock gigs? Do other musicians here do this?

Are there any other instances of on- (or, as may be the case, off-) stage etiquette that inspire strong negative or positive reactions?

Would appreciate your thoughts.

Edited July 21, 2009 by Rosco

[Rooster_Ties]

Just my take... It's fine as long as you're still visible to much or most of the audience, i.e. in a jazz bar where people can still see where you've gone, and thus don't have to wonder where you've gone to (or how far you've gone -- and are you coming back?? -- is everything OK??).

But in a concert situation, i.e. with a stage and wings -- I think it is a bit distracting to the audience to have one of the participants disappear and then reappear, particularly over and over again. Some people can't help but wonder what's going on with the absent party, and can't help but wonder (even if only semi-consciously) when the missing person will return again.

Jazz bar, OK. Stage with wings, not OK. But that's just me. Or if you wanted to disappear into the wings, keep it to once or twice at most. Anything more than that would be annoying, at least for me.

Edited July 21, 2009 by Rooster_Ties

[JohnS]

Standing to one side or getting off the stand is okay but disappearing completely no. That's my opinion as a small club promoter.

[Rosco]

Just my take... It's fine as long as you're still visible to much or most of the audience, i.e. in a jazz bar where people can still see where you've gone, and thus don't have to wonder where you've gone to (or how far you've gone -- and are you coming back?? -- is everything OK??).

But in a concert situation, i.e. with a stage and wings -- I think it is a bit distracting to the audience to have one of the participants disappear and then reappear, particularly over and over again. Some people can't help but wonder what's going on with the absent party, and can't help but wonder (even if only semi-consciously) when the missing person will return again.

Jazz bar, OK. Stage with wings, not OK. But that's just me. Or if you wanted to disappear into the wings, keep it to once or twice at most. Anything more than that would be annoying, at least for me.

Yeah, this was a jazz bar type deal. The audience would have seen me still there, off to the side, and that I was engaged in listening to the performance.

I did wonder if maybe it came across differently on the video, where you couldn't see where I'd gone.

[Dan Gould]

I'm firmly agnostic on the question at hand but this reminds me of what must have been my last public performance of any sort:

In Junior High I was shanghaied by my music teacher into accompanying the eighth grade chorus on one song (I want to say it was "Proud Mary" but after 30 years its hard to say for sure) during the Spring Concert (should probably mention I had been playing guitar for about 5 years at this point). They sing a few songs and then its time for my tune, I'm nervous as hell, the teacher helps plug my acoustic guitar into the amp, the song starts, I get lost, the teacher is shouting out chords, I'm trying to get on track, I can't even hear my guitar anyway, finally my moment in hell is over ... and I just sit there. We'd never discussed my departure from the stage (don't ask why I didn't get the hell off out of natural instinct to leave the scene of the crime) so I just sat there for one more tune. I remember the teacher looking at me like "what the hell are you doing still here?" but by then it was too late to walk off, so he told me to sit tight and then get off the stage.

So you can be a distraction if you are digging the music or if you are just sitting there with a dull expression on your face, thinking "God I really sucked on that one".

[papsrus]

If I were in the audience, it would make no difference to me. I always assumed when musicians do leave the stage during performance, it was for some purpose (to replace a broken reed, drink some water, etc.) Perhaps the singer and rock enthusiast are more tuned to entertaining and engaging the audience.

[Dan Gould]

I'll admit I haven't gone to a lot of rock concerts but since when do rock musicians completely stop playing while someone else solos? Certainly not guitarists, and how often do you get any sort of lengthy solo from a guy on keyboards? Jazz is completely different where someone may take very long solos. When some shredding guitarist goes into his masturbatory act, the rest of the band doesn't stop.

They just keep the other noisy elements down to a dull roar.

[Joe G]

I'd generally agree with your singer friend here. In the interest of professionalism, as well as directing the audience's attention, I'd follow Cannonball's advice to his band: turn toward and watch the person who is soloing when you are not. It would pretty pretty lame to see a horn player acting like he's bored or on break while his bandmates are still playing. Not that you would do that.

[AllenLowe]

bandstand alternatives when having finished a solo and waiting for the other musicians to play:

1) juggle (I have seen Alfredson do this on several occassions; very entertaining)

2) read a comic book (Joe G. prefers this method)

3) check your makeup with a compact mirror (generally recommended only for people actually wearing makeup)

4) text the good-looking babe in the third row (but first make sure she's not the Mafioso owner's girl friend)

5) adjust the wedgie in your tighty whiteys (7/4 will be doing this at his upcoming Brooklyn gig)

6) throw up (I have had some success with this)

7) Urinate into the piano (somebody actually did this while my brother's country band was playing a gig one night years ago) -

Edited July 21, 2009 by AllenLowe

[mikelz777]

As an audience member, I think a musicians leaving the stage should be an infrequent exception and never a rule. I recall a live performance where a musician didn't even leave the stage but he had totally checked out mentally. He played the entire set but his eyes rarely left the TV over the bar where a baseball game was playing. At first I found it amusing but it detracted from the performance for me. The same holds true for me when someone leaves the stage. For me, whether intended or not, it signals disrespect and disinterest. I think musicians should grab a chair or a stool when they're not playing and during the other's solos, become part of what is hopefully an interested and attentive audience.

[PHILLYQ]

I've been going to concerts/clubs for about 35 years and I never thought it any problem at all if a musician leaves the stage when another player is soloing. You may have a cracked reed, full bladder, gotta spit, etc. it's never been an issue with me.

[rockefeller center]

Makes no difference to me if a musician leaves the stage to snort coke, check emails, whatever or not.

[WorldB3]

never bothered me, it can also be interrupted as giving others respect by giving them their time in the spotlight.

[fasstrack]

Last week I played a gig with a quintet (I was on tenor). A couple of the tunes were videoed by someone in the audience. During the trumpet and piano solos, I did what I usually do when I'm not playing.

I left the stage.

This, to me, seems perfectly reasonable. My philosophy is if you're not playing get the hell off the stage (this may be a Miles-ism I picked up along the way- ironically, we were doing an all-Miles set). Usually, I stand off to one side to listen to and watch the other musicians, check out the sound, maybe drink some water or wipe away some brow sweat, then come back on when it's time for my solo or the closing head.

I showed the video to two friends of mine, who had two very different reactions, both of which surprised me.

The first is a singer with some experience of jazz gigs. She was quite surprised to see me leave the stage and said she'd never seen anyone do that before. However, she said she totally got why I would do it and said she wished she'd thought of it during her own performances, where she admits she gets self-conscious just standing there while the other musicians are playing.

The second friend is a non-musician, whose main experience of live music is watching rock gigs. He was nothing short of horrified and told me in no uncertain turns that it looked arrogant and disrespectful to the other musicians.

I see it as totally the opposite. If I'm standing onstage and not playing then I'm really just distracting attention from the people who are. If the pianist is taking his solo, then the trio are doing the work. Let the audience watch them! The first friend liked that I was letting the other musicians be the focus of attention. The second thought it showed a lack of professionalism.

I admit I was suprised that anyone commented on it at all. It never struck me that it would be something in any way noteworthy, let alone controversial.

So, any opinions on this? I thought it was more common than it seems to be. Is this something you see at gigs? What is your reaction when it happens? Is there a different perspective on this between audiences at jazz and rock gigs? Do other musicians here do this?

Are there any other instances of on- (or, as may be the case, off-) stage etiquette that inspire strong negative or positive reactions?

Would appreciate your thoughts.

I hate watching videos of myself. They just remind me that my head is tucked way down in my chest and it looks outwardly like I play all the way inside myself and don't want to be heard----when nothing could be further from the truth.

If you feel like leaving the stage, leave the stage. As long as you really give your all when you're on the stand, and sincerely want to reach people to bring out things, good, bad, but real, people will pick up on it. Better than smiling and being phony. They will smell that every time, trust me. Look at Tom Harrell. For all he goes through and as weird as he looks people keep coming back----all over the world for years now----because of the truth and warmth in the music. Music is an auditory art and one of veracity. Videos are bullshit.

Edited July 21, 2009 by fasstrack

[.:.impossible]

Do your thing. A horn player having a seat during someone elses solo seems perfectly reasonable and respectful to me.

[A Lark Ascending]

Never bothers me - if anything it suggests a respect for the other musicians, especially from a front line player or leader, throwing the visual focus on those playing. I saw Branford Marsalis do this a few weeks back and thought it most appropriate - the 'star' stepping from the limelight when others were musically centre-stage.

I'm far more disturbed by bands who refuse to talk to the audience - mercifully rare. But I have seen a few well known players adopt a sour-faced disregard for they audience. I don't expect pantomime but a bit of mutual 'we're glad to see you' between performer and audience works the same as in any social situation.

[JSngry]

I see no problem in leaving the stage per se, just don't leave the performance. Remain engaged wherever you are.

[Niko]

what i found disturbing was a trumpeter (sideman in a pianist's quartet) going to the front of the stage during the piano solo, looking carefully through the audience for like five minutes (looked pretty strange because he didn't try to be discrete and obviously had bad eyesight...) he should better have left the stage... (but, of course, from elsewhere he couldn't see people's faces as well)

no problem with stage leavers here...

[AllenLowe]

well, I did have a drunken piano player get up once in the middle of a tune to use the men's room - but it was better than the alternative-

[Jazzmoose]

You know, the first time I saw a live jazz band was a real shock to me. It had never dawned on me that, with the solos and all that there were times when musicians were doing absolutely nothing but standing around with their thumb up their ass in the middle of a song. When I saw the tenor player standing there nodding his head, then scratching, then appearing to search for something on the stage floor, I found it totally distracting. So I probably would go with the "yes, please leave the stage and get out of the way if you're not playing" vote. I think what bugs listeners who aren't used to it is the idea that a musician isn't concentrating totally on the music being played from start to finish, but eventually we figure out that jazz is even more different than we thought...

[Big Beat Steve]

No problem with non-players stepping off to the EDGE of the stage to watch and apreciate those in full action - BUT:

Is it really THAT common in today's jazz combo's club gigs to play tunes in an "every man for himself" string of solo manner, and is it THAT rare for those bands to arrange their music in such a manner that those among the horn men who do NOT solo will still be involved by providing a background of fill-ins, riffs and what not?

In short, anything to make sure that you do get more than just a string of one horn man's solo backed by the rhythm section and everybody else sitting it out except for brief ensemble passages and THEIR solos.

I must have been attending the wrong club gigs of late ... but then many of them were in a real R&B bag, i.e. the forefathers of rock where this sort of constant backing by the FULL band is more common, it seems.

[Rosco]

You know, the first time I saw a live jazz band was a real shock to me. It had never dawned on me that, with the solos and all that there were times when musicians were doing absolutely nothing but standing around with their thumb up their ass in the middle of a song. When I saw the tenor player standing there nodding his head, then scratching, then appearing to search for something on the stage floor, I found it totally distracting. So I probably would go with the "yes, please leave the stage and get out of the way if you're not playing" vote. I think what bugs listeners who aren't used to it is the idea that a musician isn't concentrating totally on the music being played from start to finish, but eventually we figure out that jazz is even more different than we thought...

To go slightly off topic...

I put on a jazz gig a couple of years ago. The venue divided almost exactly in half- on one side of the venue were the 'jazz people', folks I knew from playing here and there, other musicians from bands and workshops; the other half were 'non jazz people', friends, family, work colleagues.

We played the first song of the evening, and I took the first solo. As I finished and handed over to the guitarist the 'jazz' half of the audience broke into applause. I was watching the non-jazz people and every (and I mean every) face turned to the 'jazz' crowd as if to say 'What the hell are they doing? Tune's not over yet!'

After two or three songs they got the idea that they could applaude solos and started to join in, but it was an interesting culture clash moment.

Maybe this is another one of those.

[Guest Bill Barton]

As an audience member I can appreciate the concept behind soloists retiring to the wings or even sitting down in the audience when someone else is soloing. It focuses one's attention on the person "in the spotlight." And I see no problem with it whether it's a club or a concert venue. Just don't miss your cue to come back in! I recall seeing that happen once long ago and unfortunately the bandleader was Charles Mingus. It wasn't pretty...

[Dan Gould]

I know we've already gone through the 'should you applaud each solo?' debate, but its kinda amusing to think of those non-jazzers, if they weren't already confused by the music, they had to really be confused by the applause in the middle of a tune.

[Guest Bill Barton]

You know, the first time I saw a live jazz band was a real shock to me. It had never dawned on me that, with the solos and all that there were times when musicians were doing absolutely nothing but standing around with their thumb up their ass in the middle of a song. When I saw the tenor player standing there nodding his head, then scratching, then appearing to search for something on the stage floor, I found it totally distracting. So I probably would go with the "yes, please leave the stage and get out of the way if you're not playing" vote. I think what bugs listeners who aren't used to it is the idea that a musician isn't concentrating totally on the music being played from start to finish, but eventually we figure out that jazz is even more different than we thought...

To go slightly off topic...

I put on a jazz gig a couple of years ago. The venue divided almost exactly in half- on one side of the venue were the 'jazz people', folks I knew from playing here and there, other musicians from bands and workshops; the other half were 'non jazz people', friends, family, work colleagues.

We played the first song of the evening, and I took the first solo. As I finished and handed over to the guitarist the 'jazz' half of the audience broke into applause. I was watching the non-jazz people and every (and I mean every) face turned to the 'jazz' crowd as if to say 'What the hell are they doing? Tune's not over yet!'

After two or three songs they got the idea that they could applaude solos and started to join in, but it was an interesting culture clash moment.

Maybe this is another one of those.

Yes, I think that you have a very good point there! The whole tradition of applauding a solo can be very off-putting. Sure, it's wonderful to show your appreciation, but so often it's just a knee-jerk reaction to the "tradition." Personally, I don't applaud a solo that didn't move me in some way. And I've been known to stand up and applaud like a madman when somebody really dug in and tweaked the ol' viscera. Luckily I resisted that temptation when I went to hear Anthony Newman play and conduct the Brandenburgs with members of the Seattle Symphony a couple of years back! I so wanted to jump up and applaud some of Newman's harpsichord playing but - hey - it's a different "tradition" and a different aesthetic... Hopefully I wasn't judged a philistine by other audience members for actually - horrors! - tapping my feet and bobbing my head to J.S. Bach.