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Mark Stryker

Roy Hargrove in Trouble

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The answer for a guy like Roy Hargrove if he is an addict has nothing to do with learning or hoping not to cop on the street at 4:30 in the AM. If he is an addict and continues to use, he isn't gonna get any better at using or any smarter. It only gets worse.

And if he's not an addict, if he's just one of them Get High For Fun Boys, then the actions that led to his result are those of a really dumb, common motherfucker who happens to be a good trumpet player.

Or more to the point - as the means of provisioning criminal behaviors to the customer base desirous of same become increasingly sophisticated in terms of discretion and anonymity (to say nothing of the integration with the societal units contractually charged with enforcing the laws regarding these same behaviors) , it rather...urgently behooves the consumer of such behaviors to follow suit, unless and until said customer decides to an irrevocable point of certainty that their needs are better served through other means.

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I think one of the big problems in this case is that he's been "getting away with it" for a very long time! and even if he's "high as a kite," he plays his ass off! and he's had help in "scoring" through the years. I believe all these things have not been helpful for him to "get clean". and, maybe, I don't know what the hell I'm talking about! just observing from a distance.

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The answer for a guy like Roy Hargrove if he is an addict has nothing to do with learning or hoping not to cop on the street at 4:30 in the AM. If he is an addict and continues to use, he isn't gonna get any better at using or any smarter. It only gets worse.

And if he's not an addict, if he's just one of them Get High For Fun Boys, then the actions that led to his result are those of a really dumb, common motherfucker who happens to be a good trumpet player.

Or more to the point - as the means of provisioning criminal behaviors to the customer base desirous of same become increasingly sophisticated in terms of discretion and anonymity (to say nothing of the integration with the societal units contractually charged with enforcing the laws regarding these same behaviors) , it rather...urgently behooves the consumer of such behaviors to follow suit, unless and until said customer decides to an irrevocable point of certainty that their needs are better served through other means. For sure. It certainly it is the smart or cogent or reasonable thing to do for an addict to follow direction of other addicts who are in recovery and have a pretty cool blueprint that is simple enough and wide ranging enough for any addict to follow no matter what their background, choices of drug(s), circumstance(s), fame, lack of fame, race, sexual preference, belief in god or not, political viewpoint(or not) or whatever. I know hopeful 25 year old Rock Star dude with real possibilities who was in jail 6 years ago guys who is clean 5 years and retired janitors who are clean. And many others who are clean. But many many more are not clean.

The reality is that very few addicts get clean AND stay clean for any significant period of time. That is the reality. I wish it wasn't the case.

The reality is that I took responsibility for the total and absolute wreckage that was my life and took responsibility for my recovery. I owe no more. I am an asset to my community and my family when I was once simply a leech and a burden.

Plus I've been able to buy back some if the music I sold in 2003. 20 box sets including 5 Miles boxes and about 10 Mosaics - all sold in a month. Plus about 500 other discs - again all gone in a month - and most at 10c on the dollar. Not planned. Not happy after the drugs ran out. I thought there was no way out.

First step is that person or any person who appears to others around them that there is a problem is that the actual person themselves needs to get honest with themselves that they have a problem and self diagnose themselves as a drug addict. It's a very hard thing to do unless that person is desparate and maybe believes they cannot live with or without drugs.

Edited by Steve Reynolds

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I think one of the big problems in this case is that he's been "getting away with it" for a very long time! and even if he's "high as a kite," he plays his ass off! and he's had help in "scoring" through the years. I believe all these things have not been helpful for him to "get clean". and, maybe, I don't know what the hell I'm talking about! just observing from a distance.

Good point. I had wanted to comment on the silly sentence that the judge imposed. It seems to me that it works to enable Roy to continue his drug habit, rather than stop it. Too often addicts are enabled to continue their habits by enablers, sometimes those who mean harm, like dealers and fellow-users, and sometimes those who mean well, like family, or in this case, a judge, who want to give "another chance." Unfortunately, it's not that easy. Only an addict can make that decision to stop; it's very, very hard to reach that point. The judge need not have sent Roy to jail but should have at least ordered a drug evaluation, testing, and a course of treatment or counseling. Maybe this was done, I don't know, but if it wasn't, it should have been.

Rather than repeat what Steve has said, I'll just say that he is telling like it is.

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30 minutes ago, erwbol said:

Tomorrow's Roy Hargrove concert at the Bimhuis got cancelled at least two weeks ago, I believe. It says on the website due to illness. Could this be a drugs related illness?

"Much to his regret, due to medical reasons Roy Hargrove has cancelled his upcoming European tour. He hopes to recover soon to resume touring."

Or, you know, he could be facing medical issues.  It is uncalled for to speculate.

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I saw him perform in January; he looked fine and played well.

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The dude's, like 46. Middle-aged. Medical shit starts to happen no matter how crazy your youth was and/or wasn't.

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I've debated posting this but just in case someone here knows Roy or knows someone who knows Roy, I think that they really should try to get the guy some help.

A good friend of mine went to Roy's 2nd set at a Boston club back on January 21st and he said Roy was completely out of it. As in, he could barely stand, much less play. He said if he had to guess, it was probably heroin. He came out and sat in a chair for most of set, staring around glassy-eyed. From what my friend said, it was pretty bad for his band too.

I've seen Roy many times and he always puts on a great show. I hope he's around to continue to do so far into the future. Get yourself well, Roy.

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On 5/30/2014 at 1:08 PM, king ubu said:

So would they still lock him up for 20 years or so? The way they did with Frank Morgan, Dexter Gordon, Teddy Edwards, Art Pepper ... sure drugs suck and sure they don't do damage exclusively to those that consume them, but ... various sets of morals on display.

When he gets high in his car and kills or maims someone, I be quoting your post.

Dexter Gordon was locked up for 20 years?!

It's the society's fault.:rolleyes:

 

Edited by Dmitry

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You know a lot of driving junkies, do you?

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Yeah, I get it. But there's a lot of drugs that affect you a lot of ways. Heroin is not really a driving drug, if you know what I mean (nor is it mentioned on that site). And a really smacked out junkie has a hard time getting up off the sofa, never mind finding the keys, never mind getting out to the car, never mind getting into the car, never mind turning the key, etcetcetc.

I mean, I've known some guys who would drive to score, but once they fixed, they weren't going anywhere. Driving is an intrusion, and the object of the game is to eliminate all intrusions, period.

Don't get me wrong, Mr. Hargrove seems to, no does have problems, but being a liability behind the wheel is going to be waaaaaay down the list, if it's even on the list.

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1 hour ago, JSngry said:

Yeah, I get it. But there's a lot of drugs that affect you a lot of ways. Heroin is not really a driving drug, if you know what I mean (nor is it mentioned on that site). And a really smacked out junkie has a hard time getting up off the sofa, never mind finding the keys, never mind getting out to the car, never mind getting into the car, never mind turning the key, etcetcetc.

I mean, I've known some guys who would drive to score, but once they fixed, they weren't going anywhere. Driving is an intrusion, and the object of the game is to eliminate all intrusions, period.

Don't get me wrong, Mr. Hargrove seems to, no does have problems, but being a liability behind the wheel is going to be waaaaaay down the list, if it's even on the list.

Well, I don't know about specific drugs and driving, perhaps you're right, but I do remember this story that made national news last year.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/1795257/woman-seen-in-shocking-pics-overdosing-on-heroin-in-a-car-with-her-young-grandson-is-jailed-for-180-days/

Plus, as reported above he was sniffing coke in his car. Driving on coke is no problem? I know people smoke weed and drive all the time. That's got to slow down your reaction time in a huge way.

 

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Steve Reynolds, 

 

I want to commend you and thank you for your openness. I know this was three years ago now, which is sometimes multiple lifetimes for an addict. I hope you are well and continue to maintain your awareness. 

 

Cary Ralston

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Well, ok. I'm of the opinion that concern is most effectively directed at reality rather than perception.

Yes - people driving while high (on many things, including alcohol and caffeine) is not in anyway a non-concern. It's serious, it's dangerous, and it's real.

But...

No - that lady who ODed in that car wasn't driving anywhere now, was she? Even if she hadn't ODed, she was not gonna be driving. Heroin, not really a truck driver's favorite, if you know what I mean.

So, as it specifically pertains to Roy Hargrove, the comment

When he gets high in his car and kills or maims someone...

just doesn't seem a reality-based concern to me. Yes there are junkies, and yes there are people drive high. But do junkies drive high? Is this really a problem, or is this the combining of two real concerns into one illusionary single "problem"?

If Roy Hargrove had been coked out and driving, yeah, worry. But what's being reported here is that he was likely smacked out in a pretty serious way. That cat ain't drivin' nothing, except himself to the grave, and it ain't gonna be in a car that he does that.

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This is a sad situation. A truly gifted artist continues to have a monkey on his back. I truly hope those around him can get help him achieve sobriety.

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1 hour ago, JSngry said:

Well, ok. I'm of the opinion that concern is most effectively directed at reality rather than perception.

Yes - people driving while high (on many things, including alcohol and caffeine) is not in anyway a non-concern. It's serious, it's dangerous, and it's real.

But...

No - that lady who ODed in that car wasn't driving anywhere now, was she? Even if she hadn't ODed, she was not gonna be driving. Heroin, not really a truck driver's favorite, if you know what I mean.

So, as it specifically pertains to Roy Hargrove, the comment

When he gets high in his car and kills or maims someone...

just doesn't seem a reality-based concern to me. Yes there are junkies, and yes there are people drive high. But do junkies drive high? Is this really a problem, or is this the combining of two real concerns into one illusionary single "problem"?

If Roy Hargrove had been coked out and driving, yeah, worry. But what's being reported here is that he was likely smacked out in a pretty serious way. That cat ain't drivin' nothing, except himself to the grave, and it ain't gonna be in a car that he does that.

I'm not even sure you be serious...:o

https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/811415

Nationwide in 2009, 63 percent of fatally injured drivers were tested for the presence of drugs. Overall, 3,952 fatally injured drivers tested positive for drug involvement in 2009. This number represents 18 percent of all fatally injured drivers

http://www.emsaonline.com/mediacenter/articles/00000503.html

  • Cocaine
    Cocaine may successfully mask fatigue; however, high dosages impair judgment and interfere with the ability of the driver to concentrate. Coordination and vision are impaired. There is an increase in impulsive behaviors with tendencies to take more risks and create confusion within the user. A person using cocaine maintains the illusion of being alert and stimulated, although physical reactions are impaired.
Additive effects are noted when cocaine is combined with over-the-counter products, such as diet pills or antihistamines. Cocaine taken with psychotropic drugs, especially antidepressants, can be extremely detrimental.  A person who has extremely high blood pressure and uses cocaine may suffer from a stroke or heart attack.

Some users combine cocaine with alcohol and sedatives to cushion the "crash" or feeling of depression and agitation that sometimes occurs as the effects of cocaine wear off. Further research indicates that additive and antagonistic effects can be produced when cocaine is mixed with alcohol.

If cocaine is used in high doses, as in the case of overdose, alcohol will probably have an additive effect on the symptoms that eventually contribute to death.

When cocaine is injected in combination with heroin, sometimes called "speedballing," there is an increased risk of toxicity, overdose, and death.

 

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Yeah, I'm serious. Why you're worried about heroin causing a cocaine-related driving incident is what I don't get. If there's speedballing involved, it's the coke that will enable the driving. sure ain't gonna be the heroin. Does it sound like Roy Hargrove is speedballing?

When cocaine is injected in combination with heroin, sometimes called "speedballing," there is an increased risk of toxicity, overdose, and death.

Uh, ya' think? Wow, who'd a thunk it?

You know what's a real risk? These idiots who get pumped up on Red Bull and Monsters all day long and then go blowing through congested traffic in a rage, honking and weaving and being pissed of that they can't drive 70 at a red light.

Hell, those guys could use some heroin. But not until they get the Red Monster Bull out of their system. Not until. They need to sit down, shoot up, nod off, and stay the fuck out and off of the public thoroughfares.

For that matter, them and the drunks should have their own dedicated highway system. Call it the Thin The Herd Expressway.

 

 

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Alcohol is a far greater concern re: people getting behind the wheel than heroin, I'd agree. That said opioid addiction is a huge, huge problem in this country (in addition to prescription medicines) and for the most part unchecked.

Cocaine is a shitty drug but fairly expensive and far from an epidemic. It does indeed make one feel invincible or at least "really, really good" for a little while... and mixed with alcohol (which it often is, at least in my experience) quite dangerous. 

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1 hour ago, clifford_thornton said:

 That said opioid addiction is a huge, huge problem in this country (in addition to prescription medicines) and for the most part unchecked.

I've spent a good amount of time over the last few years in the Ohio/Kentucky/West Virginia nexus, and you would not (or maybe would) believe how many doctors - real doctors -  are handing shit out to patients who just walk in for "pain", some of it job-related, some of it just...bullshit. They get on a regimen and don't have to follow up or anything, just walk in and say "I'm here for my medicine", somebody asks them "are you still having pain?", they say "oh, yes", and out they go with either a script or, one time I saw, a couple of boxes of samples! It's disgusting, especially when everybody up there is blaming other people for there being no good jobs. Hell, fuckers, sober up, go back to school, learn a marketable skill other than just showing up most of the time, you know? I don't care how "great" America is going to be made "again", you prescription-enabled junkies ain't gonna be a part of that. We only get one zombie apocalypse in a life time. At least that's what I pray.

Now, having said that, why is it that we can dispense "painkillers" in a semi-regulated, quasi-controlled, actually LEGAL  process and environment, but a good, honest (if troubled), jazz trumpeter still has to resort to illegal street drugs?

As far as driving, the people up in that area usually had somebody driving them, because, you know, they're in so much "pain". So, not really worried about hillbilly prescription opiaddicts driving into a school bus, or some other scare-tactic bullshit. Plenty of drunks got that in their pocket. But heroin? Junkies? Street drug, shooting up JUNKIES? THIS is a public safety driving issue to be addressed head on with full vigor and rightness of purpose? In what fact-constricted paranoid-distorted universe is this occurring?

Ours, apparently, but...that's only gonna work until it doesn't. Make the roads safe, round up the junkies and take away their driver's licenses.

Yeah, that's a GOOD plan....

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yeah, guess I wasn't really referring to Hargrove in my post. In New York, heroin and cocaine are both very, very easy to get and the former is quite cheap. I am casually offered coke rather often, to this day, as a middle aged man who goes to bars and/or concerts several times a week. It's part of life in this scene whether or not one partakes (never been offered heroin and have zero interest). So I could see how someone like Hargrove could get caught up in using without being otherwise a dubious individual and once on the regular with that stuff, the long game of fucking up gets very short indeed. On the other side of that these days myself, hopefully, but just to say Hargrove's issues are believable and not necessarily a personal slight.

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Roy's been dealing with this for a looooong time, I don't think it's any real secret. He's by all accounts a really good guy, but addiction doesn't limit itself to assholes, right?

I'm just kind of lol-ing in disbelief that anybody would hear that a guy's strung out and their first response would be to go all PSA-ish about "Don't Mainline And Drive!!!", I mean, the disconnect there to me was really jarring.

I miss this guy:

302f4bd547c405df23ba81adde7253c6.jpg

Gloves like Anita O'Day!

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1 hour ago, JSngry said:

Roy's been dealing with this for a looooong time, I don't think it's any real secret. He's by all accounts a really good guy, but addiction doesn't limit itself to assholes, right?

I'm just kind of lol-ing in disbelief that anybody would hear that a guy's strung out and their first response would be to go all PSA-ish about "Don't Mainline And Drive!!!", I mean, the disconnect there to me was really jarring.

When I posted about Roy's recent trouble here in Boston, it was not about "Don't Mainline And Drive". It was about "Don't Mainline And Die". From what my friend saw, he's not doing well along these lines. I hope we aren't reading his obit soon.

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