paul secor Posted March 10, 2003 Report Share Posted March 10, 2003 I posted this question when I had just joined the Blue Note Board and didn't get any responses. Thought I'd try it again here. Does anyone have an opinion as to whether the bassist identified as Carl Brown on Steve Lacy's Evidence album (New Jazz 8271/OJC 1755) might be Charlie Haden? His playing doesn't sound exactly like Haden's with Ornette, but there is a similarity to my ears. From Nat Hentoff's liner notes: "Bassist Carl Brown, originally from the west coast, was introduced to Lacy by Billy Higgins, and Steve has worked with Brown on the coffee house circuit. 'He's got a great big sound," adds Lacy, 'plenty of swing, and he and Billy are real tight.'" Any thoughts or opinions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Fitzgerald Posted March 10, 2003 Report Share Posted March 10, 2003 Interesting - the only other thing this Carl Brown is credited for is an unreleased Atlantic recording session of Lacy's (trio w/Higgins) just before the New Jazz session (10/31/61). If the notes are supposed to be dropping hints, Haden wasn't *originally* from the west coast, of course. My opinion after listening to "Something to Live For" is that it's not Haden, but this brings up the question: What *was* Charlie Haden doing in 1961 - or 1962, for that matter? I have no notes on this. Valerie Wilmer mentions a "period of inactivity." Ornette was using Garrison, LaFaro, then Izenzon at that time. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul secor Posted March 10, 2003 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2003 I'm not completely sure of the time frame, but I seem to remember reading that Haden had lost his cabaret card around this time. Don't know if that would have anything to do with recordings - actually not, as I understand it - but it might explain someone playing in coffee houses as opposed to clubs where alchohol was served - see the liner note quote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Fitzgerald Posted March 10, 2003 Report Share Posted March 10, 2003 Yup - both right. http://www.npr.org/programs/jazzprofiles/o...site/haden.html That must have been the time frame. Haden next appears in California in 1963. And Billy Higgins lost his card due to a drugs charge as well, sometime around late 1959 - http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0120/giddins.php Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nessa Posted March 10, 2003 Report Share Posted March 10, 2003 I have the Atlantic Lacy material, and it does not sound like Haden. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest youmustbe Posted March 10, 2003 Report Share Posted March 10, 2003 I shoulda asked Don or Billy.... If I remember, Charlie junked out, (Didn't Buell Neidlinger do a lot of sets at Five Spot because Charlie couldn't make it? And who has the tapes?) Also, Charlie sold his prized bass to Reggie Workman, I'm told, for nothing, so he could cop. Circa 61. Why doesn't someone ask Lacy? A great record, no matter who plays bass. As I posted on that other board, I heard Steve do the Monk think with Roswell, and Dennis Charles, but I cannot remember who the bassist was! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Fitzgerald Posted March 10, 2003 Report Share Posted March 10, 2003 In March 1963 at the Phase Two it was Henry Grimes with Lacy, Rudd, & Charles. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul secor Posted March 10, 2003 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2003 I have the Atlantic Lacy material, and it does not sound like Haden. Chuck, if you have the Atlantic Lacy material, does Atlantic have it? Any chance that Mosaic (or less possibly Rhino) might reissue it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nessa Posted March 10, 2003 Report Share Posted March 10, 2003 Long story. In the late '70s before the Atlantic fire, I was negotiating with Nesuhi Ertegun (via Cuscuna) to buy 2 unissued dates from Atlantic. They had a half album by Lacy and another by Don Cherry. I planned an lp coupling these dates. We had agreed on the $, and Nesuhi asked me to negotiate royalty deals with Lacy and Cherry before signing. Then I received news via Cuscuna that the deal was off since Warner/Atlantic's Japanese affiliate (Pioneer) had announced the desire to issue a series of "unissued Atlantics", and had requested a complete master list. That series never materialized, and then the warehouse fire destroyed the masters. Luckily Atlantic had sent me 7 1/2 ips stereo copies of the masters. I think Cuscuna had a set as well, and probably sent them to Atlantic after the fire. A couple years ago I inquired about leasing the material so I could issue it, but was told the deal was too small for them to bother. The Cherry date is a trio with Henry Grimes and Ed Blackwell, and is spectacular. Ruppli's Atlantic discography lists 4 "unknown" titles, but I only have 3. Maybe the 4th was incomplete. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest youmustbe Posted March 10, 2003 Report Share Posted March 10, 2003 Was Phase II in the basement? Near Eugene O'Neill Theater (Now I think it's the Provincetown, or is it vice versa?). That's where I heard Steve.. Funny, I heard Henry so many times, Cecil, Ayler, Lloyd and others...he never quite registered in my mind. Live, he didn't come thru, his sound was very elastic, he was there, everybody liked playing with him even though he had his problems, but he was a 'blend in' type of bass player, unlike Ron, (hard to ignore him, so tall). But as I mentioned on the other boeard, whose name I can't remember, this was a time when bassists were getting drowned out by the Elvin, Tony style of drumming, and before they started putting the mic in the bridge of the bass to get bigger sound thru PA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nessa Posted March 11, 2003 Report Share Posted March 11, 2003 I'm really surprised nobody commented on the info I gave about the unissued Lacy and Cherry dates. Maybe I'm better off WEA spurned my advances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Fitzgerald Posted March 11, 2003 Report Share Posted March 11, 2003 Regarding the Cherry/Grimes/Blackwell session, the Raben discography notes: Erroneously "Black Elk Speaks" was assigned to 2 masternumbers (5831 and 5832). This explains the 4 vs. 3 titles, I guess. I'm excited to know that this still exists and hope to see it released someday (in my lifetime, preferably). Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nessa Posted March 11, 2003 Report Share Posted March 11, 2003 Mike, does it give other titles? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J Larsen Posted March 11, 2003 Report Share Posted March 11, 2003 Cherry/Blackwell/Grimes is a monster line up. I'd buy it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Fitzgerald Posted March 11, 2003 Report Share Posted March 11, 2003 From the Henry Grimes discography on my website: Date: November 29, 1961 Location: New York City Label: Atlantic ldr- Don Cherry; c- Don Cherry; b- Henry Grimes; d- Ed Blackwell 5829 The Idiot (Ornette Coleman) 5830 Harlemite (Don Cherry) 5831 Black Elk Speaks (Don Cherry) Details from Raben who says: Erroneously "Black Elk Speaks" was assigned to 2 masternumbers (5831 and 5832). 5829 is untitled - Raben says: Ornette Coleman composition - prob. "The Idiot". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nessa Posted March 11, 2003 Report Share Posted March 11, 2003 It sounds like an Ornette tune. I've spent a lot of time searching through my recordings trying to find it. Thanks Mike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEK Posted March 11, 2003 Report Share Posted March 11, 2003 Chuck, I had heard awhile ago about those Atlantic recordings that you have from a mutual friend. You would have at least two sales if you could arrange for their release. And thanks for rereleasing "Snurdy McGurdy..." The music is even better than I remember, and the HDCD sound is quite nice. (I wonder how "Spirit Catcher" would sound...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul secor Posted March 11, 2003 Author Report Share Posted March 11, 2003 If the Cherry and Lacy recordings were released, I'd order a couple of copies in advance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted March 11, 2003 Report Share Posted March 11, 2003 A couple years ago I inquired about leasing the material so I could issue it, but was told the deal was too small for them to bother. This is what I don't understand. How is there any LOSS for them? Surely they've got (or at least had) pissant staff on hand who handle what they consider "insignificant" work, so where's their expense of any degree? What am I missing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeweil Posted March 11, 2003 Report Share Posted March 11, 2003 That's an attitude keeping many small scale reissues on the shelf, I think. If they can't get a minimum out of it, they rather won't do it at all, even if someone else does the work. Perhaps just getting the tapes and cover art or whatever out of the vaults must be too much work in such a case. An irresponsible attitude, they don't care for the diehard fans that will keep them alive, in the long run. Too small a deal, ridiculous, just plain ridiculous! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Late Posted June 2, 2003 Report Share Posted June 2, 2003 I second that. I'd love to hear this music. Lacy in a trio is my favorite Lacy format. And hearing Cherry in a trio would be great too. What would have to be done in order for this music to make it onto compact disc, and available for purchase? It seems like there's quite a bit of Lacy material from the 60's that's never seen release or reissue. Supposedly, Lacy recorded quartet music circa 1963 for both Verve and Columbia that got "lost." What th'? Two somewhat "obscure" Lacy albums from this period (actually around 1965) are Sortie and Disposability, the former a quartet record, the latter a trio record (made at the RCA studio in Milan). Fine music in both, and I wish — especially as Lacy's still with us and back in the States — that they'd see proper issue on compact disc. Probably won't happen for another 237.6 years. I'll be dead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul secor Posted June 2, 2003 Author Report Share Posted June 2, 2003 Carl Brown was a real bass player, not a nom de plume. I heard him with Billy Higgins and Clarence "C" Sharpe in the Village early sixties (he's the guy on EVIDENCE). David - Thanks for the info that Carl Brown did exist, and was not just a nom de plume. That was what I wanted to know when I started this thread. Now, it would be interesting to find out what happened to him. He seemed to be too fine a bass player to just disappear, although, as Henry Grimes proves, it can happen all too easily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luciano Posted November 19, 2014 Report Share Posted November 19, 2014 Long story. In the late '70s before the Atlantic fire, I was negotiating with Nesuhi Ertegun (via Cuscuna) to buy 2 unissued dates from Atlantic. They had a half album by Lacy and another by Don Cherry. I planned an lp coupling these dates. We had agreed on the $, and Nesuhi asked me to negotiate royalty deals with Lacy and Cherry before signing. Then I received news via Cuscuna that the deal was off since Warner/Atlantic's Japanese affiliate (Pioneer) had announced the desire to issue a series of "unissued Atlantics", and had requested a complete master list. That series never materialized, and then the warehouse fire destroyed the masters. Luckily Atlantic had sent me 7 1/2 ips stereo copies of the masters. I think Cuscuna had a set as well, and probably sent them to Atlantic after the fire. A couple years ago I inquired about leasing the material so I could issue it, but was told the deal was too small for them to bother. The Cherry date is a trio with Henry Grimes and Ed Blackwell, and is spectacular. Ruppli's Atlantic discography lists 4 "unknown" titles, but I only have 3. Maybe the 4th was incomplete. Dear Nessa, happy to write you (expecially if you are the Chuck Nessa of Nessa Records, as I suppose). I'm a Don Cherry's passionate and I wish to known if the unissued session by Cherry could be recorded in Los Angeles, Atlantic's Studio, 1961 and the titles: 5829 The Idiot (04:56) 5830 Harlemite (08:34) 5831 Black Elk Speaks (07:10) On the contrary, could you so kind to write date recording and any other informations about? Again: Is it possible you will publish a record of that item? Greetings Luciano Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Beat Steve Posted November 19, 2014 Report Share Posted November 19, 2014 @Luciano: See Michael Fitzgerald's post of 10 March 2003 above. He answers it all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luciano Posted November 21, 2014 Report Share Posted November 21, 2014 I whish known if these are the correct personnel on the Holy Mountain Soundtrack, by Jodorowski: Don Cherry tp,Carlos Ward as,Leroy Jenkins vln,Joan Klisch, Nancy Newton viola, Pat Dixon, Jane Robertson cello,Carla Bley p,Christer Bothén guinbri at the beginning of the film, Richard Davis b, Bengt Berger perc, Ed Blackwell dr plus unidentified members of the Jazz Composers Orchestra. I apologize with all for my bad English Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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