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Jazz trumpeter Hino attacks schoolboy drummer

86 posts in this topic

I am a little shocked at the reaction here as I found this incident to be absolutely disgusting. This is child abuse and is not at all amusing. How would you react if it was a young girl?  And if the drummer was my kid Hino would be in the hospital right now.

Edited by AllenLowe

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20 hours ago, AllenLowe said:

I am a little shocked at the reaction here as I found this incident to be absolutely disgusting. This is child abuse and is not at all amusing. How would you react if it was a young girl?  And if the drummer was my kid Hino would be in the hospital right now.

I agree. Physical abuse is never all right, and should not be accepted.

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I agree--nothing amusing about hitting children. It's outrageous he didn't get his ass fired.

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Just how old of a children was the guy?

Also, how much of a slapping was this?

I'm reminded of the NFL-er of a few years ago who talked about how his grammaw used a switch on him when he was a kid, and the next thing I know, I'm hearing that the man had been beaten by a tree limb.

If it's too small a kid or too hard a slapping, yeah, that's horrible. But if it's a 16 year old with too much attitude, and if it's just a bit of an ear boxing or some such, hey, not all "physical abuse" is equal. I went upside one guy's head once because he put my family in jeopardy by his self-indulgent carelessness. I didn't whoop him, but I did get into his space and I did put the palm of my hand upside his head, not to hurt, but just to get his attention.

So, if the kid was innocent and Hino beat him up, no, not acceptable. But if the kid was an arrogant fuck and Hino just got his attention, hey. The boy's parents thanked him for that.

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It said in the article the kid was in Junior High School. So probably in the 12-14 years old range. And that Hino grabbed him by the hair, and slapped his face twice. 

So no, not acceptable. At all. The End. 

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Somebody needs to tell the boy's parents that. They thanked Hino, so...maybe Hino did what they had been wanting to do. Which is pretty cop-outty of the parents.

Are we talking a full-on pimp-slap or just a Harpo Marx type silly-slap. There's all kinds of "slaps".

In Japan, "junior high school" covers grades 7-9 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secondary_education_in_Japan so....puberty and hormones and all that shit.

If I'm/we're being called to "condemn physical abuse against children", well, yeah. Duh.

But if all I know is that some teenage drum solo got "slapped" by Terumasa Hino, then I'm gonna need more details, because of all the lined potentially being crossed, teenagers and drum solos don't automatically make it across, I need more information.

And oh btw, I went on record here as finding that band-director-slapping-the-kid scene in "Whiplash" totally repugnant. That scene auto-disqualified be from ever watching that movie. Ever. If only because that was a work of fiction, and there was more than enough abuse going on in the story already. To me, that counts as gratuitous violence. I will not watch that.

So yeah, it's easy to think adult slapping a teenage drummer as auto-equating to that scene in that movie, but...again I gotta ask - what kind of "slap" are we talking about here? As well as what kind of a teenager, and, bottom line - what kind of a drum solo?

 

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I always wondered how schools (at  least here in Texas) got away with administering  beatings of students with a wooden club (licks they were called) back in the 1970s,  ostensibly for disciplinary reasons. As I  recall there would be a vice principal in charge  of  administering licks, and the coaches also liberally doled out mini-beatings.

There actually is a special legal justification for educators which can protect them from assault charges against students.

To quote the Texas Penal code: "The use of force, but not deadly force, against a person is justified:

     (1) if the actor is entrusted with the care, supervision, or administration of the person for a special purpose; and

     (2) when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is necessary to further the special purpose or to maintain discipline in a group."

Presumably the outcome would be that Hino's belief that the force he used was necessary to further his music education purpose was not a reasonable belief, though of course one would have to know the actual facts, as opposed to reaching judgment based on a vague newspaper article.

 

Edited by kh1958

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UPDATE!!!! VIOLENCE BEGTETS VIOLENCE!!!!

Hino has now been given a slap on the wrist by the ward’s board of education, which organized the show.

The board described Hino's attack as "excessive instruction" and requested to the musician's office that the internationally acclaimed trumpeter refrain from any violent acts, meaning "don't do it again."

The junior high school student suffered no permanent injuries from the roughing up.

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2 hours ago, kh1958 said:

I always wondered how schools (at  least here in Texas) got away with administering  beatings of students with a wooden club (licks they were called) back in the 1970s,  ostensibly for disciplinary reasons. As I  recall there would be a vice principal in charge  of  administering licks, and the coaches also liberally doled out mini-beatings.

There actually is a special legal justification for educators which can protect them from assault charges against students.

To quote the Texas Penal code: "The use of force, but not deadly force, against a person is justified:

     (1) if the actor is entrusted with the care, supervision, or administration of the person for a special purpose; and

     (2) when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is necessary to further the special purpose or to maintain discipline in a group."

Presumably the outcome would be that Hino's belief that the force he used was necessary to further his music education purpose was not a reasonable belief, though of course one would have to know the actual facts, as opposed to reaching judgment based on a vague newspaper article.

 

That statute is appalling, and probably unconstitutional.

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From the  Texas Court of Criminal  Appeals in 1887:

Willson, Judge. This conviction is for an aggravated assault and battery. The facts are, substantially, that defendant was a school teacher conducting a school; that the party assaulted, one W. Z. Nugent, a boy nine years of age, was a pupil in said school. This boy fought with other boys, but the fighting occurred away from the school house, and not during school hours. Among other rules of the school was one prohibiting the students from fighting. When it came to the knowledge of the defendant that this pupil and other pupils had been engaged in fighting, he punished all so engaged for a violation of said rule, by whipping them. He whipped the pupil, W. Z. Nugent, with a switch of reasonable size, and struck him about nine licks on the legs, inflicting no severe bruises, abrasions or other serious injury. These are the facts upon which this conviction is based, and in our judgment they do not sustain the conviction.

Our law wisely provides that Go to the description of this Headnote.the exercise of moderate restraint or correction by a teacher over a scholar is legal, -- does not constitute an assault or battery. (Penal Code, art. 490, sub. div. 1.) It is not shown by the evidence that the correction administered by the teacher to his pupil in this instance was immoderate. It was merely an ordinary whipping with a small switch, such as many parents inflict upon their refractory boys, and such as should perhaps be more common among parents and teachers. That the punishment was inflicted for an infraction of a rule of the school, which infraction was committed away from the school house, and not during school hours, did not deprive the teacher of the legal right to punish the pupil for such infraction. (Bouldin v. The State, ante, p. 172.)

Believing this conviction to be contrary to the evidence and the law, the judgment is reversed and the cause remanded.

Reversed and remanded.

Opinion delivered May 25, 1887

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I got my share - or more - of licks back in the day, and I saw plenty of paddles, but never any "clubs".

Also, I was usually deserving of some kind of disciplinary action, I was not particularly respectful of the notion that a teacher deserves respect just because they were a teacher (thankfully, my kids did not get this attitude passed on to them, or if they did, they knew better when it came time to act). Point just being, the enforcement of corporal punishment was insanely inconsistent, there was no standard other than the teacher was supposed to have a witness, but that was it. Some teachers obviously got off on it, had custome made paddles, it was a fetish, obviously.

But...discipline in a classroom is essential, and if this method of maintaining it was somewhat, uh...un-evolved, it was also pretty effective, if only as  a threat, a possibility. And the teacher whose licks I did not want to get past the first - and only time I got them - was from Emma Sue Bennett, a spinsterish near-midget of a reading teacher who loved, you, make no mistake, but if she was going to have to give you licks, she made sure you were going to regret it, also make no mistake. That woman know how to aim and how to land...wrists like Ted Williams, I'm thinking.

Like so many things, corporal punishment generally worked in its own time and in its own way, that time and that way now being outmoded. I believe by the time my son began kindergarten, 1991, it was banned, if not in Texas, at least in the PISD. And more the better, if for no other reason that the inconsistency and potential - too often realized - for real abuse masquerading as "policy". Looking back as an adult, I realized how many different life stories were at play in the assembling of small town schools, more that I could have realized at the time were not particularly...healthy. Ok, "healthy".

But make no mistake, kids can get a little too chesty for anybody's good, and once those hormones start kicking in...a teacher has to be able to establish and keep the upper hand, kids smell weakness and kids can be cannibalistic little fuckers sometimes, they'll gang up on you and eat you alive. They will, sometimes.

But true power, true control, comes from knowing that you have the ability to neutralize, to inflict discipline that is impactful. That does not, should not, equate to licks, or even slapping, or even verbal abuse, Hino is, what, 78? He's old enough to have heard how, "hey boy, you're lucky you didn't get an atom bomb dropped on your ass, now go practice" and have it resonate, because...that's some heavy shit, ok? Random classroom paddling kinda pales in comparison to getting an atom bomb dropped on your ass, right?. So, a little perspective please, because between chesty teenagers and untasteful drum solos and some random (hopefully) slapping, my score card is reading 2-1, in the bottom of the 7th.

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5 hours ago, CardinalJazzFan said:

An adult physically assaulting a child is never acceptable. Period.

No long winded justification for a man physically abusing a boy or girl cuts it. It is just wrong. End of story.

Why was Hino not criminally charged? That is what I want to know.

Absolutely agree

If an adult in a teaching/coaching/mentoring relationship with a minor feels they need to resort to physical violence they simply shouldn't be in that or any similar relationship with a minor

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6 hours ago, CardinalJazzFan said:

An adult physically assaulting a child is never acceptable. Period.

No long winded justification for a man physically abusing a boy or girl cuts it. It is just wrong. End of story.

Why was Hino not criminally charged? That is what I want to know.

Differing laws, I guess. If it'd happened here in the U.S. he would have been charged with assault. 

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And really, what do we know other than the one report? "Slap" can mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people. People really do not like touching of any variety these days. I generalize, but...

As reported, the story is potentially disturbing, but I'm not one to immediately default to the worst case scenario when digesting reporting, and truthfully, if it was a case of a light-ish roughhouse-ing to get a chesty teen's attention, that's far more innocuous than bitch-slapping the fuck out of 12 year old.

Maybe Hino had a Lesson From An Elder to impart (the boy's parents thanked him, don't overlook that crucial fact when interpreting the WTF?), or maybe he's getting old, unstable and dangerous. Either could be the case, but without having more details, we don't know.

I didn't immediately reach a conclusion about Bill Cosby, and there was a helluva lot more smoke around him than there is Terumasa Hino.

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Feel free to continue stepping on rakes, but whether his parents thanked Hino or not has absolutely no bearing on whether or not it was criminal assault of a minor. 

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And it apparently was not. At least was not charged as such.

But maybe some "cultural context" might help to more fully process the raw data? I doubt that a Japanese parent would condone a true beating of their child in public, much less offer thanks.

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2 hours ago, JSngry said:

And it apparently was not. At least was not charged as such.

But maybe some "cultural context" might help to more fully process the raw data? I doubt that a Japanese parent would condone a true beating of their child in public, much less offer thanks.

There are plenty of parents all over the globe that don't give two shits about their children. Another piss poor metric. 

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Well, ok, then. Tell me what you saw. Not what you read, but what you saw.

Nothing, right?

And tell me how much "reporting" there has been on this. One source only if Google is correct. So, what do you know about that newspaper, that reporter?

So what does "slap" mean to you? And how much of that meaning derives from your personal experience? I've been slapped in ways ranging from playfully to not-so-lovingly to pissed off to downright threatening.

The point is not that this incident was not acceptable, the point is, what WAS this incident, exactly? You don't know, I don't know. All we know is that it appears that Terumasa Hino thought that this drummer was fucking up somehow, so he "slapped" him. Your image of that scenario and mine might overlap in places, but I obviously see a scenario where, no, not cool, but also, no big deal, learn your lesson drummer, ok, and then let's move on.

Yeah, it could be a lot worse than that, but what to we have to indicate that it was? Or wasn't? We ain't got shit except one online news story. The rest is emotional responses/projections.

Emotional response to general reporting from unfamiliar sources is understandable, but not stopping to process is just irresponsible. There's been enough of that already.

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1 hour ago, JSngry said:

We ain't got shit except one online news story.

That's right. And that's all we're responding to. 

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Can't see your video here at work, but if it's that Whiplash shit, hey. THAT'S bad, and again, I did not and will not see that movie because I do not want to see that.

Otherwise, reaching a conclusion by emotionally responding to one online news story with no further reporting to fill out the picture? I can't go there. The web article continues to add/change content with no update date, so already...I don't question that an incident occurred, but - how accurately is it being reported that I need to form an opinion that beating kids is bad? Because I already have that opinion. But how relevant is that here, a little or a lot or maybe not so much at all? For all we know, this kid grows up to be a great drummer and/or a world leader who makes world peace and he thanks Terumasa Hino for showing him the error of unchecked pride. Probably not. Maybe he grows up to be a horrible HORRIBLE person and it's all Terumasa Hino's fault. Again, probably not.

 

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1 hour ago, JSngry said:

Because I already have that opinion.

 

Actually, you don't. If you did, you wouldn't be spending all this time creating all these qualifiers. 

An adult grabbing a minor by the hair and slapping their face twice is not only wrong and morally reprehensible, it's also a crime in the United States. As it should be. 

But hey, like I said, feel free to keep barreling down the "rape victim had it coming because she was dressed like a slut", or "the murder victim ran their mouth just a little too much" highway to nowhere. It's fun, if not mildly disturbing to watch. 

You know I have no problem following you down pretty much any intellectual rabbit hole you want to indulge, but this is one time where you're on your own. 

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4 hours ago, JSngry said:

And it apparently was not. At least was not charged as such.

But maybe some "cultural context" might help to more fully process the raw data? I doubt that a Japanese parent would condone a true beating of their child in public, much less offer thanks.

This seems correct. Japanese culture has a somewhat different attitude towards punishment meted out by elders.

 

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Japanese parents are cruel people, then.

Apparently. :rolleyes:

 

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3 hours ago, JSngry said:

Japanese parents are cruel people, then.

Apparently. :rolleyes:

 

 

Absolutely! 

Because the act of two parents is indicative of how an entire race/nationality operates! 

Hey, no irony to see here, move along...

Edited by Scott Dolan

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Is Japanese a

1 hour ago, Scott Dolan said:
 

Absolutely! 

Because the act of two parents is indicative of how an entire race operates! 

Hey, no irony to see here, move along...

Is "Japanese" a race?

Sorry for the nuance, but, you know, facts do matter.

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