felser

BFT 213 link and comments

81 posts in this topic

12 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Gato is not on the Lonnie Liston Smith album (Astral Travelling). It's somebody named George Barron.

https://www.allmusic.com/artist/george-barron-mn0001717573

I have not heard these of his.

Yeah, I get that so is the BFT track not Gato or not from 'Astral Travelling'?

I think I need a lie down...

 

Edited by mjazzg

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Mark, here is the album for #12

SMITH,LONNIE LISTON & THE COSMIC ECHOES - Astral Travelling - Amazon.com  Music

Lonnie Liston Smith - Astral Traveling - Amazon.com Music

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Thanks John. So that's not Gato not being Pharaoh but the aforementioned George Barron? He's the only sax player credited on Discogs for that album.

I really should have left this alone when I said I was going to a few hours ago. Sorry folks!

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1 minute ago, mjazzg said:

Thanks John. So that's not Gato not being Pharaoh but the aforementioned George Barron? He's the only sax player credited on Discogs for that album.

I really should have left this alone when I said I was going to a few hours ago. Sorry folks!

I was confused by the Gato thing, too, man.  I finally just accepted that I'd missed something.

 

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Gato-confusion, more stimulating than a second cup of coffee!  Point Jim was making was that Flying Dutchman wanted to key into the Pharoah audience with his former piano player, Lonnie Liston Smith, and that some people also said that Flying Dutchman wanted to key into that same Pharoah audience with Gato.  Neither he nor I buy the Gato theory, but it is further confounded by the fact that Lonnie Liston Smith played with Gato after he left Pharoah.  At any rate, be sure to check out Gato's 'El Pampero' album, live at the 1971 Montreux festival, with Lonnie Liston Smith and, amazingly, Chuck Rainey and Pretty Purdie, plus Sonny Morgan and Nana, creating a classic.  There is, of course, no sense in every trying to put Gato on a BFT.  He is always instantly recognizable, regardless of how good or how bad the cut is.

But cut 12 is Lonnie Liston Smith with George Barron on sax, just to be clear!

Still need ID on the cuts for 12 and 13 (we have the artist/album), and for everything on cut 11.

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Great explanation, felser!  I have pretty much all the Gato up to Last Tango (I forget the actual title -- live recording).  After that it's spotty, because the vast majority is utter crap.  So unfortunate, because he had such a beautiful sound.  To my ear, Jeff Coffin owes a heavy nod to Gato for his tone.

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19 minutes ago, tkeith said:

Great explanation, felser!  I have pretty much all the Gato up to Last Tango (I forget the actual title -- live recording).  After that it's spotty, because the vast majority is utter crap.  So unfortunate, because he had such a beautiful sound.  To my ear, Jeff Coffin owes a heavy nod to Gato for his tone.

Actually it gets complicated for the next decade.  The Impulse albums are actually really good on their own terms, more "ethnic" than the Flying Dutchman's.  I don't play them nearly as much, but would never part with them.   And the remainder sets on Flying Dutchman ("Yesterday"s and the unreleased track on "El Gato") are essential.  The A&M's are to taste, as there are plenty of commercial concessions.  However, 'Caliente' is, to me, the greatest album ever made in that genre by a longshot, the production and repertoire are superb, and Gato sounds just like Gato, and very happy to be there.  Diminishing returns on the rest, but they all have their moments, especially 'Ruby, Ruby'.  Then you have the early 80's post-A&M period, and he made two worthwhile, straight ahead albums.  "Gato...Para Los Amigos", which is a fabulous live 2LP set with great repertoire and long-time sidemen, which is essential, and "Apasionado" a small group studio set with the definitive take on "Last Tango...".   Not essential, but worthwhile.  But after that, nothing is remotely worthwhile, and I've heard them all.  But don't sleep especially on 'Caliente' and 'Gato Para Los Amigos'.

Edited by felser

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Agree on Caliente.  Will find para Los Amigos. Thanks!

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Gato's impulse! albums, especially the first and last ones are pretty glorious, imo. Reception at the time was that he had finally found his voice. People liked the FD stuff, but sometimes they seemed a little directionless/skwonkyskweeley. The Latin America series, otoh, was TOTALLY focused.

Mileages may vary, but not so much that I've heard?

I also agree on the A&M stuff. Sure, they're "mood music", but it's a legit mood done really well. The question is how much is the little that goes a long way...I have a pretty high tolerance for it, but that's just me.

One thing I learned from checking out his version of Eur0pa, though - that thing was studio constructed, either that or he's the greatest circular breather ever! But - you can still pack a dance floor with it for a slojam. Still.

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Wasn't Chico O'Farrill involved with at least some of the Gato impulse! records?

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9 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Wasn't Chico O'Farrill involved with at least some of the Gato impulse! records?

Chapter 3 Viva Emiliano Zapata was the big band one. And O'Farrell did the arrangements.   Really good album.

 

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7 minutes ago, randyhersom said:

So is 12 the Gato ESP?

No, it's Lonnie Liston Smith - Astral Traveling album.

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On 12/1/2021 at 3:46 PM, tkeith said:

track 10 - This just makes me want to get in a big, 70s car and try to outrun Roy Scheider.  Oddly hip, oddly pop-ie.  I want to like it more for some things, and I want to loathe it for others, but I can't quite get to either point. It's in 3, so... there's that.  Curious.

Listening to this again, and not sure what strain was involved, but this is NOT in 3, but 5 (so, I guess 'half three'?).  Egad.

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5/4 is THE Pop Odd Meter, thank you Take Five, I guess.

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On 12/3/2021 at 2:57 PM, felser said:

Chapter 3 Viva Emiliano Zapata was the big band one. And O'Farrell did the arrangements.   Really good album.

 

It is, and mostly overlooked rather than under-rated or under-appreciated.

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To me the Impulse Latin America Chpt. 1, 2, & 4 are the crowning achievements of Gato's career.  I also love Last Tango (the music, the movie not so much), Yesterdays, and El Gato (with Oliver Nelson), and the one with Dollar Brand.  Diminishing returns on the rest, IMHO.  Lonnie Liston I never got into that much, Sanders' Impulse leader dates I have mixed feelings about - moments of brilliance and a lot of fluff in-between.  As it said in the liners to a reissue of Gato & Dollar, "I do not scream for the same reasons Pharoah screams".

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Writing as I listen. Not focusing too much on identifying the musicians, which is something I am not good at anyway, but just sharing my impressions as I go along.

 
1.    Funky Latin stuff. Nice as club music to talk to pretty ladies to. Otherwise, not too interesting IMHO. Competently played, predictable and repetitive.

2.    I have this album, haven’t listened to it for ages. Used to like it a lot – not sure whether I would appreciate it these days... Good idea with reverb on the saxophone. All these exotic percussions create very nice effect. The pianist is doing some interesting comping – I find her harp playing is mostly decorative up-and-down arpeggios, but her piano playing is for real. Brutalist primitive violin playing. This violin player plays more or less the same solo everywhere – whether with John Handy or his own albums or here. Yeah, and here is the harp solo – pretty but pretty weak, IMHO. Man, is this bass groove solid. 

3.    Nothing that grabs me here. The vocalist is OK. The band is OK. The string arrangement is as bland as it can get (and totally unnecessary). The tune itself is a boring blues, never liked it.

4.    Oh, tenor-drums duo. I like this format a lot – a lot of space for the horn. It is fairly obvious who these two are thanks to copious number of familiar licks that both used throughout their long careers. The drummer is considered one of the greats – I actually don’t like him that much and he ruins a few otherwise fine Blue Note dates for me. I think he played better late in life – like here – and equally important, his drums sound was recorded much fuller. The saxophonist is a watered-down Coltrane for me. I heard quite a few of his albums, and the only one I liked was the his ECM one with Abercrombie, the rest are all the same. Have not heard this particular album, not sure I want to, even though this particular track is nice enough.

5.    Organ trio. Really not the stuff I am familiar or normally interested in, so I am curious. The tune is generic. The saxophone is playing VERY safe and by the numbers. Same goes for the organ player. Sorry, this one is very boring for me.

6.    I like the tune! Soprano / trumpet (or is it flugelhorn?) front-line – interesting. Drummer is doing some impressive stuff in the background – would this be Jack DeJohnette by chance? No, not him, more rockfish. The trumpet solo is good, a bit shaky. Eddie Henderson? I definitely know the trumpeter but can’t come up with the name. Soprano solo is solid. I liked the tune, the drummer in particular. 

7.    This is great! Everything is just perfect here. I loved it.  

8.    The tune is cute. I am indifferent to vocals here – quite monotonous. The horn arrangement is nice. At 3 ½ minutes’ mark it feels like enough. Way too long for what it is. Would have liked to have more horn solos. 

9.    I can’t stand Latin music for the robotic oppressiveness of its rhythms. And I don’t like jazz flute either, although this solo is OK (not sure about the reverb). Nice propulsive bass. Some empty chatter from vibes – cute, though. OK, I guess. I definitely did not hate it. 

10.    I liked this one! Production is horrible with voices way up and cardboard box drum sound, but a great drive. Not sure I would be interested in a whole album of this stuff but at under two minutes – very enjoyable. 

11.    Long long intro. Strange piano sound. Oh, again soprano saxophone. What’s that around 1:10 behind soprano – overdubbed soprano or cello? Ugly, but entertaining. Soprano solo OK. Is that cello or bass arco? Either way, not very well played and too low in the mix! Aggressive trumpet solo – nice. Sounds like young Woody Shaw. The drummer is a bit overdoing it with cymbals, no? The bass vamp is really tiring. I like the manic piano solo, but what’s up with this piano sound? Is the piano prepared or just out-of-tune? Would this be Stanley Cowell? Oh, quite an abrupt end. It’s all rather clumsy, but I liked it. 

12.    More early 70’s spiritual staff. Alto sax solo starts OK. Man, a lot of percussion here. Oh, it’s not alto but tenor? Embarrassing, but I am not sure. Nice screeching! Piano is very cheesy. Is this early Billy Harper? Although this sounds less proficient than Harper to me. I liked it!

13.    Is this some electric saxophone thing? The tune is very simplistic. Again a bashing overactive drummer. Keyboards solo OK. Electro-sax-whatever solo is not too exciting. Seems to be struggling with the instrument. Going through motions, as far as I am concerned. Again, as in a few tracks above an obtrusive repetitive bass vamp, I feel sorry for the bass player. Second keyboards solo – flashy, but no interesting ideas. Did not like this one at all, sorry. 

Thank you for compiling this BFT, looking forward to learning about a couple of tracks.                           
 

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5 minutes ago, Д.Д. said:

Writing as I listen. Not focusing too much on identifying the musicians, which is something I am not good at anyway, but just sharing my impressions as I go along.

You ended up knowing a lot of the musicians!

 
1.    Funky Latin stuff. Nice as club music to talk to pretty ladies to. Otherwise, not too interesting IMHO. Competently played, predictable and repetitive.

I like the rhythm section a lot on this.  Yes, predictable.  It's not jazz, doesn't try to be.

2.    I have this album, haven’t listened to it for ages. Used to like it a lot – not sure whether I would appreciate it these days... Good idea with reverb on the saxophone. All these exotic percussions create very nice effect. The pianist is doing some interesting comping – I find her harp playing is mostly decorative up-and-down arpeggios, but her piano playing is for real. Brutalist primitive violin playing. This violin player plays more or less the same solo everywhere – whether with John Handy or his own albums or here. Yeah, and here is the harp solo – pretty but pretty weak, IMHO. Man, is this bass groove solid. 

You certainly have this one nailed.  I seldom listen to this album, but love the groove on this cut, largely the work of the bassist.

3.    Nothing that grabs me here. The vocalist is OK. The band is OK. The string arrangement is as bland as it can get (and totally unnecessary). The tune itself is a boring blues, never liked it.

I like the tune, found the identity of the singer fascinating, which was my reason for including it.

4.    Oh, tenor-drums duo. I like this format a lot – a lot of space for the horn. It is fairly obvious who these two are thanks to copious number of familiar licks that both used throughout their long careers. The drummer is considered one of the greats – I actually don’t like him that much and he ruins a few otherwise fine Blue Note dates for me. I think he played better late in life – like here – and equally important, his drums sound was recorded much fuller. The saxophonist is a watered-down Coltrane for me. I heard quite a few of his albums, and the only one I liked was the his ECM one with Abercrombie, the rest are all the same. Have not heard this particular album, not sure I want to, even though this particular track is nice enough.

I like both players more than you do overall, but you certainly know who they are.

5.    Organ trio. Really not the stuff I am familiar or normally interested in, so I am curious. The tune is generic. The saxophone is playing VERY safe and by the numbers. Same goes for the organ player. Sorry, this one is very boring for me.

I love the tune, and the drummer makes the cut for me.  I think the tenor and organ do some nice things in their solos, though the tenor also has some boring parts.

6.    I like the tune! Soprano / trumpet (or is it flugelhorn?) front-line – interesting. Drummer is doing some impressive stuff in the background – would this be Jack DeJohnette by chance? No, not him, more rockfish. The trumpet solo is good, a bit shaky. Eddie Henderson? I definitely know the trumpeter but can’t come up with the name. Soprano solo is solid. I liked the tune, the drummer in particular. 

Correct that the drummer is more rockish.  Trumpeter ID will be interesting for you - not Henderson.

7.    This is great! Everything is just perfect here. I loved it.  

Classic cut.

8.    The tune is cute. I am indifferent to vocals here – quite monotonous. The horn arrangement is nice. At 3 ½ minutes’ mark it feels like enough. Way too long for what it is. Would have liked to have more horn solos. 

I agree on would like more horn solos and that it may go on a little long, but like the singer quite a bit.

9.    I can’t stand Latin music for the robotic oppressiveness of its rhythms. And I don’t like jazz flute either, although this solo is OK (not sure about the reverb). Nice propulsive bass. Some empty chatter from vibes – cute, though. OK, I guess. I definitely did not hate it. 

Just a groove tune with some interesting personnel, especially the guitarist, flute player, and vibist.

10.    I liked this one! Production is horrible with voices way up and cardboard box drum sound, but a great drive. Not sure I would be interested in a whole album of this stuff but at under two minutes – very enjoyable. 

They never did a full album of this type of stuff, rarely ventured anywhere near here again.  But what they did do otherwise, they did better than anyone ever has for a couple of years.  And the world knew it.

11.    Long long intro. Strange piano sound. Oh, again soprano saxophone. What’s that around 1:10 behind soprano – overdubbed soprano or cello? Ugly, but entertaining. Soprano solo OK. Is that cello or bass arco? Either way, not very well played and too low in the mix! Aggressive trumpet solo – nice. Sounds like young Woody Shaw. The drummer is a bit overdoing it with cymbals, no? The bass vamp is really tiring. I like the manic piano solo, but what’s up with this piano sound? Is the piano prepared or just out-of-tune? Would this be Stanley Cowell? Oh, quite an abrupt end. It’s all rather clumsy, but I liked it. 

Not Shaw or Cowell.  Interesting response you have to the cut!  I also like it a lot, warts and all (and there are plenty of warts).

12.    More early 70’s spiritual staff. Alto sax solo starts OK. Man, a lot of percussion here. Oh, it’s not alto but tenor? Embarrassing, but I am not sure. Nice screeching! Piano is very cheesy. Is this early Billy Harper? Although this sounds less proficient than Harper to me. I liked it!

Tenor, not Harper.  Surprised he was your guess as opposed to a better known tenor player.   I like the piano part and the pianist. 

13.    Is this some electric saxophone thing? The tune is very simplistic. Again a bashing overactive drummer. Keyboards solo OK. Electro-sax-whatever solo is not too exciting. Seems to be struggling with the instrument. Going through motions, as far as I am concerned. Again, as in a few tracks above an obtrusive repetitive bass vamp, I feel sorry for the bass player. Second keyboards solo – flashy, but no interesting ideas. Did not like this one at all, sorry. 

Yes, electric sax by someone who doesn't really know that much about playing it (sax is not his primary instrument).  I like the organ solo on this a lot, think it sounds like a certain beloved organist (though it's not him).

Thank you for compiling this BFT, looking forward to learning about a couple of tracks.    

Thanks for listening and sharing your thoughts!                      
 

 

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Is the trumpeter on track 11 Japanese? 

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11 hours ago, Д.Д. said:

 

4.    Oh, tenor-drums duo. I like this format a lot – a lot of space for the horn. It is fairly obvious who these two are thanks to copious number of familiar licks that both used throughout their long careers. The drummer is considered one of the greats – I actually don’t like him that much and he ruins a few otherwise fine Blue Note dates for me. 

                    
 

Mr. Felser said that his goals included "enraging" listeners, did he know that he'd do it indirectly, by eliciting comments like this?

Mileage, and all due respect, and blah blah fucking-blah, Billy Higgins "ruins a few otherwise fine Blue Note dates" for you?

Now I have heard it all.  Well, everything except a compelling argument for why Kenny G should be the subject of a documentary about his brilliance.

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6 hours ago, Д.Д. said:

Is the trumpeter on track 11 Japanese? 

He is not.

1 hour ago, Dan Gould said:

Mr. Felser said that his goals included "enraging" listeners, did he know that he'd do it indirectly, by eliciting comments like this?

Mileage, and all due respect, and blah blah fucking-blah, Billy Higgins "ruins a few otherwise fine Blue Note dates" for you?

Now I have heard it all.  Well, everything except a compelling argument for why Kenny G should be the subject of a documentary about his brilliance.

Indeed, when I think of the music/musicians I included on this BFT for shock purposes, Billy Higgins is certainly not who I thought would set someone off!

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Will anyone come along and engage on those last three tracks before the end of the month?

(I feel comfortable in saying ain't no way y'all come close to 77% ID rate on mine:g   )

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Just waiting for that reveal, not long now

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45 minutes ago, mjazzg said:

Just waiting for that reveal, not long now

I'll have it out there first thing Friday morning (USA Eastern time).  

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