Rabshakeh

Blakey's Groups/Records or Roach's Group/Records

40 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

3 minutes ago, mjazzg said:

Ronnie's carpet sitting, lovely!

If my memory is right, it was left of the stage at the end, on one of those ‘steps’. Pretty close to Art though !

It was the band with Terence Blanchard and Donald Harrison, early 1983.

Edited by sidewinder

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Yeah, I wasn't moved at all by either the overalls band or the suited up guys. Apart from the marketplace, it was over by then (generally, and of course there would be exceptions). So if you mean it's "important" in that he caught a commercial wave that he rode for a looooong time, then, yeah.

Otherwise, no, not important at all, at least not to me. Like I said, if he had died in 1976 his legacy would be assured. Might even be stronger, because my god, look at who all he had before then. Then look at who all he had after then. There's a pretty distinct difference.

4 hours ago, Rabshakeh said:

A lot of his stature sits on his having supposedly reared the last ever Next Generation, who would go on to highly important positions in jazz as talking heads on universally acclaimed 10-part documentaries. 

Yeah, well, that's a totally different type of "jazz", and it's one for which I have nothing but disdain (and worse).

 

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Posted (edited)

My post was intended to be read as ironic. "Mythos" was in inverted commas for a reason. Likewise the reference to the "last New Generation", forty years ago, and to Wynton Marsalis' role as a talking head on the KB Jazz documentary. I am not suggesting that the 1980s was Blakey's greatest era. All that I am saying is that lots of people have traded off being in his band, and that's elevated his standing retrospectively. "The School of Jazz", as Wynton calls the group, he being a graduate. 

Edited by Rabshakeh

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16 hours ago, Gheorghe said:

Blakey if I wanted to have something "safe" that just grooves.

Roach if I wanted to listen more closely and figure out things.....

Me too.

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Ok, figure out "Nihon Bash"!!! 

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21 hours ago, Mark Stryker said:

"Blakey's late '70s and early '80s records are core to the Blakey 'mythos.' A lot of his stature sits on his having supposedly reared the last ever Next Generation."

I don't think this is true AT ALL.

Very little of Blakey's stature is connected to having Wynton, Branford, Blanchard, Harrison, etc in the band. (The converse, however, might be true to the extent that the imprimatur of having been a Messenger was a big career boost for folks who played in the band from the late '70s forward.) But Blakey's well-earned position in the pantheon has everything to do with the bands and recordings he led from 1953-65; and, secondarily with his recording career outside the Messengers and relationships with Monk, Miles, etc.. In distant third would be his role in later decades as a generalized keeper of the straight-ahead flame regardless of who was in the band. Blakey did get a bump of attention in the 80s during the Young Lion era, but a lot of the coverage was about how long he had been in the game of bringing up young musicians. I know of no critic or musician, including those who played in the band, who puts any of the later records on the same level as best of those from the 1950s and '60s. I'm not saying there aren't some quality later recordings -- there are -- but to suggest they are "core to the Blakey mythos" strikes me as wildly overstated and unsupportable.

 

 

 

I completely agree with Mark.

Though I respect Max who was a great and significant drummer, it is Blakey who is my main man. Art's playing could often excite me and bring a large smile to my face.

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Irony is taking a beating.

(And for the record It's Blakey every day of the week except for the day that I get into the 50s Mercury recordings and/or the Brown-Roach.)

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12 hours ago, Dan Gould said:

Irony is taking a beating.

Hate to be that guy, whinging because his poorly worded post got read differently to intended.

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2 hours ago, Rabshakeh said:

Hate to be that guy, whinging because his poorly worded post got read differently to intended.

The moment I read your post there was no question whatsoever that it was meant in jest/facetious, however you want to call it. How else could anyone interpret "universally acclaimed 10-part documentaries"? The post wasn't poorly worded ... 

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On 04/08/2022 at 7:14 PM, Mark Stryker said:

"Blakey's late '70s and early '80s records are core to the Blakey 'mythos.' A lot of his stature sits on his having supposedly reared the last ever Next Generation."

I don't think this is true AT ALL.

Very little of Blakey's stature is connected to having Wynton, Branford, Blanchard, Harrison, etc in the band. (The converse, however, might be true to the extent that the imprimatur of having been a Messenger was a big career boost for folks who played in the band from the late '70s forward.) But Blakey's well-earned position in the pantheon has everything to do with the bands and recordings he led from 1953-65; and, secondarily with his recording career outside the Messengers and relationships with Monk, Miles, etc.. In distant third would be his role in later decades as a generalized keeper of the straight-ahead flame regardless of who was in the band. Blakey did get a bump of attention in the 80s during the Young Lion era, but a lot of the coverage was about how long he had been in the game of bringing up young musicians. I know of no critic or musician, including those who played in the band, who puts any of the later records on the same level as best of those from the 1950s and '60s. I'm not saying there aren't some quality later recordings -- there are -- but to suggest they are "core to the Blakey mythos" strikes me as wildly overstated and unsupportable.

 

 

 

:tup

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Thank God for both Max Roach and Art Blakey.    They both led some of the greatest jazz bands.  Their approaches and bands were very different.  So the question here is very hard to answer.  

 

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Posted (edited)

On 8/4/2022 at 2:54 PM, Rabshakeh said:

My post was intended to be read as ironic. "Mythos" was in inverted commas for a reason. Likewise the reference to the "last New Generation", forty years ago, and to Wynton Marsalis' role as a talking head on the KB Jazz documentary. I am not suggesting that the 1980s was Blakey's greatest era. All that I am saying is that lots of people have traded off being in his band, and that's elevated his standing retrospectively. "The School of Jazz", as Wynton calls the group, he being a graduate. 

For the record, I understood the the original irony with the possible misreading of “mythos.”  of “last new generation, school of jazz, KB references. but continue to disagree with the contention that musicians from Art’s later band who trade off being in his band have elevated the drummer’s standing retrospectively. Art’s standing was set in stone at about the same time Wynton first held a trumpet in his hands. Art enhanced the standing young cats who played with him in the 80s; not the other way around, except in the most general sense that Art continued to function as a flame keeper. 

Edited by Mark Stryker

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30 minutes ago, Mark Stryker said:

...except in the most general sense that Art continued to function as a flame keeper. 

which essentially means that he was getting gigs again. Those "lost years" or whatever you want to call them, late 60-early 70s, when he didn't have a band because he didn't have gigs becuase he didn't have a band etc, he still had that flame but he didn't have a band or the gigs. He'd be calling cats up to make a hit here and a hi there, and if he was lucky, he'd get some known (enough) quantities. But apparently he wasn't always luck.

It was the overalls band where he started working again, although how or why that started happening, I don't know. Some agent or backer or somebody got busy getting Art Blakey busy. But even that band...I'll definitely give "you" all of James Williams and some of Bobby Watson, but the only real function they all had was to be ready willing and able to play Messengers Music, wear the clothes of whatever band it was, and to be on time. In other words, don't fuck up the Art Blakey gig.

I think it was Keystone 3, the one with that Toussaint guy on tenor where I thought that maybe this was going somewhere new, but it didn't, not really.

Again, if Blakey had died in 1975 or so, his "legend" might have been even more solid than it now is. But living into and in the age of hype, he benefited from that, and I'm so glad that he did.

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Posted (edited)

22 hours ago, JSngry said:

 

It was the overalls band where he started working again, although how or why that started happening, I don't know. Some agent or backer or somebody got busy getting Art Blakey busy. 

I don’t know what the micro reason might have been — new management or the like. But the macro cultural moment was the “revival” of the acoustic mainstream in the jazz eco system, marketplace and media that flowered in 1977. “Homecoming” was taped in 11/76 and issued in 1977; VSOP toured in summer 1977 and the black Columbia album came out in the fall. Art’s “Gypsy Folk Tales” was taped in February and March of 1977 and came out later that year. (He’s wearing overalls on the cover with his infant son.) That inaugurated a new run of regular recording for Art that he hadn’t had since the three Prestige LPs in 1972-73. I’m not sure if Blakey is often spoken about in the context of Dexter’s return and VSOP, but if he isn’t (or wasn’t), he should be. He didn’t strike the match but he was part of the flame.

Edited by Mark Stryker

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Posted (edited)

Yes that’s right, it was ‘76 to ‘78 when things picked up, at least as I remember it. The Blakey album I remember from that time over here getting airplay was ‘Gypsy Folk Tales’ on Pye. Prior to that the previous release I recall domestically was that ‘Bop Session’ and ‘In Walked Sonny’ on Sonet, not with the Messengers - more low profile. Those Dex Columbia releases (‘Homecoming plus the one with the larger group, ‘Sophisticated Giant’) were also well received and indicative of the positive momentum.

Also on the plus side around that time there were more jazz vinyl specialist stores opening up here, especially London. Odd, as the economy sucked !

Edited by sidewinder

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