JSngry Posted June 11, 2005 Report Share Posted June 11, 2005 (edited) Ok, I jest. But how come Pepper's not on the cover? I know that all the albums were done under Byrd's name for BN, but the way the set is billed is "Donald Byrd/Pepper Adams", not "Donald Byrd with Pepper Adams", as was done with Grant Green & Sonny Clark. The implication (and the reality) is that this was a co-led operation. At least it was for a while, enough to merit the "/" designation. Surely there's one usable photo in the Wolff collection that shows both men. I defintiely am goofing when it comes to Crow Jim. Any operation thaI does Kenton & The 4 Freshmen needn't worry about accustions of Crow Jim And perhaps I quibble elsewise. But then again, perhaps not... Edited June 11, 2005 by JSngry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron S Posted June 11, 2005 Report Share Posted June 11, 2005 I think you need to find something better to think about on Saturday afternoons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted June 11, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 11, 2005 No doubt. But still... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidewinder Posted June 11, 2005 Report Share Posted June 11, 2005 ... and responding to this thread on a Summer Saturday evening I need my head examining ! Just a quick look in the Mosaic booklet shows that there are good photos of the duo on pages 1 and 3 that would have done the job nicely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted June 11, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 11, 2005 And should have! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron S Posted June 11, 2005 Report Share Posted June 11, 2005 Actually, Jim, what you said makes sense--especially when the covers of the other current "duo" Mosaics (Farmer/Golson, Venuti/Lang, Prima/Manone, Lee/Christy) are taken into account. In fact, on the Prima/Manone, they even used separate photos of the 2 and split the cover between them. Damn, now you have ME thinking about this on a Saturday afternoon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted June 11, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 11, 2005 Yep. You know, you hear words like "underrated" and such used for players and wonder why it's so. Pepper was never criminally underrated, a la Herbie Nichols, but I don't know that he's been fully appreciated outside the circle of the hardcore, either. It's little gestures like this that, while not by any means creating the situation, don't do a damn thing to reverse it either. One wonders why. Cuscuna is no fool, that much goes without saying, and he recognizes Pepper's value, his history, and his co-leadership of this group when it was a working band. That's no doubt why the set is titled "Donald Byrd/Pepper Adams", not "Donald Byrd with Pepper Adams". So why ain't Pepper on the cover? I just don't get it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Al Posted June 11, 2005 Report Share Posted June 11, 2005 I think you need to find something better to think about on Saturday afternoons. ← It's too hot outside to think about anything constructive! Whattya think the high's gonna be today, Jim? At least there's a nice breeze where I'm sitting! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted June 11, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 11, 2005 Whattya think the high's gonna be today, Jim? Not as high as it's gonna be in a month or two... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tranemonk Posted June 11, 2005 Report Share Posted June 11, 2005 I'm with Big Al on this one Ron.... Stop thinking about this nonsense... Instead start thinking about how many birthdays/you need to have this year to get the Elvin/Anita/Turrentine/Parlan sets... It's WAY TOO HOT for this nonsense.... I think you need to find something better to think about on Saturday afternoons. ← It's too hot outside to think about anything constructive! Whattya think the high's gonna be today, Jim? At least there's a nice breeze where I'm sitting! ← Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted June 11, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 11, 2005 Well, I stand corrected - part of Pepper's horn is included in the shadows of the cover photo, as is part of his left hand. So technically, he's there. Still... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceH Posted June 11, 2005 Report Share Posted June 11, 2005 But why, oh why, on a Saturday afternoon? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted June 11, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 11, 2005 (edited) Beats folding laundry. Seriously - I got this set in on Monday, but just cracked it open this morning. The absence of Pepper on the cover was the first thing I noticed, believe it or not. (the second was the downsized book, but oh well...). Been listening to the set all damn day, and enjoying it immensely. So it's no "deal breaker" or anything like that. I just don't get why Pepper's billed as a "co-artist", yet they couldn't find a way to put his picture on the cover. In a sense, it's not a big deal, but in another, it is. Part of me wants to think that the notion of this type of jazz having co-leaders of different races, especially on BLUE NOTE, still plays games with some people's minds, if only at a subliminal level. What kind of games varies depends on whose mind it is. Part of me thinks that the Mosaic tie-in to the "Blue Note legacy" trip leaves no room for a non-BN artist on a cover photo of a set of BN material, regardless of race. Part of me cares, and part of me doesn't give a rat's ass, ya'know? But geez, Pepper Adams was a B!TCH of a player, and co-leader of the band that made the core material of this album (and some albums on other labels). He should've been on the cover of the Mosaic. Besides, Saturday is just another day where (and how) I live! Edited June 11, 2005 by JSngry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost of miles Posted June 11, 2005 Report Share Posted June 11, 2005 One wonders why. Cuscuna is no fool, that much goes without saying, and he recognizes Pepper's value, his history, and his co-leadership of this group when it was a working band. That's no doubt why the set is titled "Donald Byrd/Pepper Adams", not "Donald Byrd with Pepper Adams". So why ain't Pepper on the cover? I just don't get it. ← Jim, have you thought about e-mailing MC at Mosaic? It's an interesting question... I wonder what he'd say in response. Seems unlikely that it was an unconscious decision on their part, though you never know! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed S Posted June 11, 2005 Report Share Posted June 11, 2005 I've had the Byrd-Adams set for a long time now. In fact, I am listening to it now. I love these last minute last chance buying sprees - they often guide me to sets I have not listened to in a while. Always wondered why only Byrd was on the cover myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted June 11, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 11, 2005 Yeah, I've thought about it, but I'm doubtful that I'd get anything more than a polite brush-off type answer, or one that takes the "Byrd as primary artist" stance. Cuscuna's been very generous in his responses to me over the years, but whenever I get either too "nosy" or too "confrontational", he backs off into Shortstockanswerland. And for this, I don't blame him at all - I'd do the exactly same thing if I was in his position. He doesn't owe us anything in terms of personal communication, ya' know? Still, I guess it's worth a shot, so I'll send a simple, unloaded inquiry out and see what comes back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim R Posted June 12, 2005 Report Share Posted June 12, 2005 Ok, I jest. But how come Pepper's not on the cover? ← I can't quite tell... is there a slide rule in his pocket? I mean, come on. GREAT player, but he made Paul Desmond look like Rock Hudson! (OK, that was in jest too...) ...I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Fitzgerald Posted June 12, 2005 Report Share Posted June 12, 2005 Were any of the included Blue Note sessions issued by any name other than just "Donald Byrd"? Who had the contract with Blue Note? Is Pepper on the cover of any of the original issues? Obviously, they couldn't leave out Adams's name entirely since they weren't including Fuego, Mustang, etc. which don't have Pepper. In this case, a "with" would have worked just as well - despite the fact that sometimes Byrd and Adams worked under Pepper's name (10 to 4). Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted June 12, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 12, 2005 In this case, a "with" would have worked just as well - despite the fact that sometimes Byrd and Adams worked under Pepper's name (10 to 4). Exactly. You get the slash, you get the photo. Period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Fitzgerald Posted June 12, 2005 Report Share Posted June 12, 2005 Well, Buell Neidlinger WAS the leader on some of that Candid stuff and the Mosaic set is "The Complete Candid Recordings Of Cecil Taylor And Buell Neidlinger" and where's Buell? - hmmm, white guy. Chet Baker was NOT the leader and YET he is still there on the cover even though he's only a "with" on "The Complete Pacific Jazz and Capitol Recordings of the Original Gerry Mulligan Quartet and Tentette with Chet Baker" - hmmm, white guy. But affirmative action was put into place so that NONE of the THREE white guys made the cover of the Bix/Tram/Tea set. So there. Justice prevails. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tranemonk Posted June 12, 2005 Report Share Posted June 12, 2005 I really don't get this post... and I'm REALLY not understanding the value/purpose of this thread.... Well, Buell Neidlinger WAS the leader on some of that Candid stuff and the Mosaic set is "The Complete Candid Recordings Of Cecil Taylor And Buell Neidlinger" and where's Buell? - hmmm, white guy. Chet Baker was NOT the leader and YET he is still there on the cover even though he's only a "with" on "The Complete Pacific Jazz and Capitol Recordings of the Original Gerry Mulligan Quartet and Tentette with Chet Baker" - hmmm, white guy. But affirmative action was put into place so that NONE of the THREE white guys made the cover of the Bix/Tram/Tea set. So there. Justice prevails. Mike ← Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted June 12, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 12, 2005 Mike's post was wickedly satirical (I hope so, because Buell is on the cover ol that Mosaic. ). The point of this thread? Just a questioning of design choice, nothing more. The Crow Jim thing was a joke, as made clear in the opening post. Design choices are fair game for discussion, I should think. They're trivial compared to the music, to be sure, but lord have mercy, if we eliminated discussions of all such matters, there goes the Sexy Album Covers thread, endless debates/discussions about various remasterings/repackagaings, commentary about the Patrick Roques neo/retro covers, CD vs. vinyl, etc. Bottom line - Pepper Adams was co-leader of that band when it functioned as a working unit. It was billed as the "Donald Byrd - Pepper Adams Quintet", and the VGM bootleg of the group at Jorgie's lists it as such. The exclusion of Adams from the Mosaic cover photo is a curious design choice, and the purpose of this thread is to highlight the curiosity of that choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tranemonk Posted June 12, 2005 Report Share Posted June 12, 2005 THANK YOU .... that helps... ! Preferably I'd rather talk about the sexy album covers Mike's post was wickedly satirical (I hope so, because Buell is on the cover ol that Mosaic. ). The point of this thread? Just a questioning of design choice, nothing more. The Crow Jim thing was a joke, as made clear in the opening post. Design choices are fair game for discussion, I should think. They're trivial compared to the music, to be sure, but lord have mercy, if we eliminated discussions of all such matters, there goes the Sexy Album Covers thread, endless debates/discussions about various remasterings/repackagaings, commentary about the Patrick Roques neo/retro covers, CD vs. vinyl, etc. Bottom line - Pepper Adams was co-leader of that band when it functioned as a working unit. It was billed as the "Donald Byrd - Pepper Adams Quintet", and the VGM bootleg of the group at Jorgie's lists it as such. The exclusion of Adams from the Mosaic cover photo is a curious design choice, and the purpose of this thread is to highlight the curiosity of that choice. ← Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbo Posted June 12, 2005 Report Share Posted June 12, 2005 Now we know why this set went right to last chance! They looked at it a few weeks ago and went "DUH! Why the hell isn't the great Pepper Adams ON THE FRIGGIN' COVER?" Then they ran out to the office to make this embarassing situation go away! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted June 12, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 12, 2005 I hereby volunteer to accept one free copy of all future Mosaic sets strictly for the sole purpose of insuring that all cover photos are appropriate to the theme of the set and the contents therein. It's a thankless job, to be sure, but what can I say? I'm a selfless type of guy... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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