Jim R

It's from a compilation CD titled: "Heritage of the Blues, 1956 - Vol. 4". I believe it's the original recording.

Quite interesting. I have the original Snooky Pryor Someone to Love Me from 1956 on Vee Jay, and it does not employ this riff. Maybe your man here got it from the Yardbirds? If he got it from the Yardbirds, why would he be singing "Someone To Love Me"? The Snooky Pryor sample I heard in iTunes is virtually identical. Maybe you're not listening closely enough?

Lennie Dale Leny Andrade Lani Hall

Well, it's not Snooky playing it, but here you go:

That's hard to believe (but I guess it depends on who you're conversing with). Now, if you'd said that about Snooky Pryor, I wouldn't be surprised at all. So... for those of you who were doubtful that this Yardbirds riff was... borrowed, see if you can find a sound sample of "Someone To Love Me" (that can be linked here). I haven't had any luck yet.

No offense taken, Jim, not in the least. I share your sentiment about the history of younger, whiter, richer musicians taking credit for the work of older, blacker, and poorer artists. For me, the bottom line is this: give credit where credit is due, and once you've taken something from someone else, show us what you can do with it. That's tradition. Many years ago, I was asked by a younger musician if it was okay to "steal" riffs from your elders. I told him, "If you're gonna steal, steal from the best." Just to be clear, I have FAR less of a problem with bands like the Yardbirds doing what they did as compared with generations (literally) of their FANS acting like these bands created everything on their own.

When did Junior Wells first record "Watch Me Move"? Some research would be required here, but that may be the one.

Quite possibly, from Snooky Pryor's "Someone To Love Me" (just listened to a sample in iTunes, and it's pretty much identical). Again, I'm not sure a riff like this can or should be copyrighted, but on the other hand, I think a lot of rock & roll enthusiasts might be better off keeping their mouths shut if they don't care to learn more about whose shoulders their idols are standing on. Btw, don't mind me, I've probably been reading too many comments by all the kids on YouTube lately.

Well, you only asked the question less than 24 hours ago, and the scope of the history of blues riffs is... sizable, to say the least. I wouldn't be too quick to make any assumptions. Personally, it always rubs me the wrong way when so many people seem to want to elevate the British (and American) rock artists in stature (relative to the blues artists they were emulating and in some cases stealing from); give them the benefit of the doubt without any desire to look back at the development of music history and check out the original artists; etc. All the "Clapton is (or was) a god"... "Freddie King was good, but Peter Green was the real king", etc. It's understandable in some ways, and it's just rock fans being rock fans, but sometimes it's still bullshit. Not only do I see it as revisionist and ignorant, but to me, a lot of the British bands' attempts at playing blues is downright terrible (and I'd say the more familiar one is with the real thing, the worse it sounds), and hasn't aged very well. I'm not attacking sonnymax on this specific topic, btw, just talking in general terms. Btw, I understand the whole debate about what constitutes "stealing", and how unavoidable some of that can be (and how natural and acceptable it can be), but the tendency of people to ignore the history of a musical genre and not make every effort to understand who influenced whom, and who deserves credit for what, seems to be at an all-time high.

Oops, I do indeed still have it. Just didn't think to pull it out and look for info on it. James is correct- Smith and Bunker credited in the notes- as well as on the label itself, which points to Oct. 3, 1953 for the instrumentals.

A fair question. I don't know the specific answer in this case, but there does seem to be less room for error in this scenario, as compared to someone trying to piece things together years later.

James, as I mentioned above, Lerfeldt and Sjogren show the two instrumental takes as being recorded at the October 27, 1953 session with Mondragon and Manne. Since they appear to have been right about the vocal version being recorded at the Feb. 15, 1954 session, I wonder if they shouldn't be trusted about the correct date of the instrumental versions also. According to Lerfeldt and Sjogren, the October 3, 1953 session (with Carson Smith and Larry Bunker) included these tunes (no TTIG): No ties Band aid Bea's flat All the things you are Moon love Happy little sunbeam Happy little sunbeam (alt take) Lerfeldt and Sjøgren (1985) indeed do not show TTIG (instrumental version) in their listing for October 3, 1953 (pages 7 & 8). They do list TTIG (vocal version) in their listing for February 15, 1954 (pages 9 & 10). Thorbjørn Sjøgren’s hardbound discography (1993) does list TTIG (instrumental version) in his entry for the October 3, 1953 session (page 28). His listing for TTIG (vocal version) on page 29 lists it with the October 27, 1953 session that had Mondragon and Manne. Okay, thanks. I only own the 1985 paperback version, and was basing my comments only on that. That's the best evidence of all, I'd say. I no longer own the 10" LP with the instrumental version, so thanks for clarifying that. Too bad he didn't explain this in a footnote.

Why do you think that they were right about the vocal version being recorded at the Feb. 15, 1954 session> A couple of reasons. First, as I posted yesterday, and Mr. Harrod has echoed, the original records showed this information specifically (in the case of PJ 1222, not just comments about the players in the essay, but specific discographical data at the top of the liner). Secondly, it has always seemed logical to me to put my trust in the people who have done the research and published a discography on a specific artist (in this case, Chet). From what James has said above, that now seems like it may not always be a good idea, depending on the age of the particular edition of the discography one owns.

Hmm... now that I've thought about it a bit more, I'm not sure it makes any sense to trust Lerfeldt and Sjogren on that one. Still seems odd, though, that they would have made that error...

James, as I mentioned above, Lerfeldt and Sjogren show the two instrumental takes as being recorded at the October 27, 1953 session with Mondragon and Manne. Since they appear to have been right about the vocal version being recorded at the Feb. 15, 1954 session, I wonder if they shouldn't be trusted about the correct date of the instrumental versions also. According to Lerfeldt and Sjogren, the October 3, 1953 session (with Carson Smith and Larry Bunker) included these tunes (no TTIG): No ties Band aid Bea's flat All the things you are Moon love Happy little sunbeam Happy little sunbeam (alt take)

If we're going to include artwork created for digital downloads, we'll be here all day. Still gave me a good chuckle, though.

Right, that's the good news here. I don't know when the conflicting data first appeared, but no, not a big issue. It just bugs me (I tend to be hyper-vigilant about these things, like a real discographer ). I don't know for sure, but it still seems like a good possibility- especially with the liner on my original copy of PJ 1222 showing the same date as the book for that vocal recording. I have no grudges against Lord or anything, I just haven't seen any "official" correction to Lerfeldt and Sjogren's data, and that on the PJ 1222 liner. Discographers, no matter how well-respected, are human, and sometimes run with someone else's errors.

Nelson Riddle Frank Gorshin Topol

There is just one vocal version in the Mosaic set. The existence of just one vocal version is consistent with what's indicated in the 1985 discography. It's the recording dates that are puzzling me. The way I look at it (which is more of a discographer's viewpoint), the remaining question is with regard to which recording dates (and thus, which personnel) are correct. The information gathered by the two men who devoted themselves to compiling and publishing a discography dedicated to Chet (as well as the information listed on the back of the original 12" LP) conflicts with both the Mosaic discography as well as the info given on some of the CD reissues. Since the Mosaic notes don't indicate that a correction was made at some point to the actual recording dates, and I haven't seen any indication of that anywhere else, I'm still not convinced that the Mosaic discography is correct. An error may have been made long ago, and everyone is simply repeating it. OR, the Lerfeldt/Sjogren discography (and the liner on the LP) could have been wrong... but you'd think somebody would have pointed out the error, as opposed to just going with different dates with no comment or footnote about it. I'm torn between believing what I see in the Mosaic discography (a pretty well-researched thing) and believing a published discography on Chet (and what it says on the original LP). I tend to disregard what it says on CD reissue booklets, where a LOT of errors are made. For the time being, I'm going with Lerfeldt and Sjogren (2 instrumental versions recorded Oct. 27, 1953 with Freeman, Mondragon and Manne; vocal version recorded Feb. 15, 1954 with Freeman, Smith and Neel). If the Mosaic dates are correct, I think they should have included a note about the conflicting data.

Mark Almond Mac Adamia

pack rat neat nut nut job

I pulled out my CD copy of "Chet Baker Sings" (TOCJ 5951, a reissue of PJ 1222), and they show the '54 date with Smith and Neel for TTIG. Fwiw. Ha- I was looking at the facsimile of the rear cover of PJ 1222 included on the Japanese CD booklet, and I suddenly realized that I still have my original LP copy of PJ 1222. The recording date and personnel were listed on the rear cover, and it lists the 1954 session. I wonder how and why the more recent discographies- including the usually reliable Mosaic- show the '53 session. I know somebody must have done some serious research on this already, but at this point I remain puzzled.

Thanks, ubu. This is indeed confusing. I still suspect that the '85 discography may be wrong, but who knows for sure. It would help if somebody still had all the various vinyl issues and could listen and compare the tracks. I don't have your "Chet Baker Sings" CD version, btw. I have the "Let's Get Lost" compilation, and a Japanese TOCJ version of "Chet Baker Sings" (uh, AND the Mosaic! )

With the knowledge that it may be incorrect (or... not?), I just thought I'd present the details from the Hans Henrik Lerfeldt / Thorbjorn Sjogren discography published in 1985. Chet Baker Quartet: Chet Baker (tp), Russ Freeman (p), Joe Mondragon (b), Shelly Manne (d) LA; October 27, 1953: PJ 310 The Thrill Is Gone (2:43).................... PacJa 615, EP4-9, LP 6, JWC 503, ST 20146, (J) K18P 9260, Vg(E) EPV 1032, LA 160122, Swing M 33334 The Thrill Is Gone (alt. take) (2:46)................ PacJa WP 1249, (J) K18P 9260 Issues: "Chet Baker Quartet" (LP 6; 10"), "Jazz West Coast" (JWC 503),"Gerry Mulligan & Chet Baker" (ST 20146 = reissue of PJ 75), "Pretty/Groovy" (WP 1249), "Cool Baker, vol. 2" (K18P 9260) ===== Chet Baker Quartet: Chet Baker (tp, vo), Russ Freeman (p), Carson Smith (b), Bob Neel (d) LA; February 15, 1954: PJ 365 The Thrill Is Gone (2:46).................... PacJa LP 11, PJ 1222, Sunset SUS 5180 Issues: "Chet Baker Sings" (PacJa LP 11, PJ 1222 ===== note: Unlike the Mosaic discography, Lerfeldt and Sjogren do not list an instrumental version of TTIG in their entry for October 3, 1953.

ubu, can you tell me exactly which issue this was (via a catalog number or a cover image)? There have been a few issues and reissues of this stuff.