Rooster_Ties

Quite a good piece, I thought - for the most part. Could have covered his music a touch more, but this was for a mainstream audience - so I'm not complaining. A physician very familiar with Harrell's condition and situation called his success at being productive and creative, despite his condition, as being nothing short of "heroic". I'm sure I couldn't agree more.

Funny stuff, Johnny. Really, I'm rolling on the floor (seriously!!). But come on, admit it. You and Chris are part of the problem, as much as Greg is. And some other guys don't help either. Any ideas for how to keep things better in control?? Remember what Joe Henderson said... "If You're Not Part Of The Solution, You're Part Of The Problem"

Careful Johnny - you'll wreck your posting percentages!!

Picking up from the "J.R. MONTROSE IN ACTION" thread... I saw Andrew Hill in Iowa City early in July of this year, at an outdoor festival - and there were probably 2,000 other people there who were diggin' Andrew as well. People of all ages. Young (younger than college-age, meaning highschool-age mostly), medium (late 20's, 30's, 40's), and older (you know who you are). In other words, it wasn't all college kids, not by a long shot. And you can't tell me that even half of those people had ever even heard of Andrew Hill before, but there they all were!!! Similar (though slightly smaller crowds, earlier in the day) were very attentive for 90-minute sets by Fred Anderson (in a pianoless trio, w/ bass and drums), and Ron Miles in a quartet with guitar, bass, and drums. All three groups were pretty "out" and/or "creative" – depending on the tune and your perspective. (Nothing that our beloved "hardbop" would have liked one bit, I can tell you that!!) Hill’s set was a pretty darn "out" 90-minute set (as a quartet with Greg Tardy, Nasheet Waits, and I forget who the bass-player was). But the crowd listened very attentively. Imagine hearing a cross between "Point of Departure" and the LIVE version of "A Love Supreme" - for the very first time!! (Tardy's playing was more "out" than "in", much of the time.) That's probably what it was like for most (at least 60%) of these people - I'm guessing. But they really seemed to love it. Damnedest thing I've ever seen. And by way of comparison, here in Kansas City a couple years ago, the Dave Holland Quintet show just barely broke even!!! - filling only about 30%-40% of a relatively smallish venue that holds maybe (I'm guessing) 800 people?? 1,000 tops. Couldn't have been more than 400 people there at most, and even if the 'floor' was half full, the 'balcony' was 80% empty (I know, I was there). Then, by way of further contrast, I saw the Holland Quintet in Columbia MO about a year later (smallish town halfway between Kansas City and St. Louis, where the University of Missouri is), and they sold the place out!!! - in a theater probably held between 800 and 1,000. Columbia can’t be more than 200,000 people, 300,000 tops!!! The Kansas City metro is like 1.6 million!! Grandted - the Iowa City show was free, and both Holland shows you had to pay $20-$25 for tickets for. But still, people here don't listen to "out" shit (like Hill), even when it is free!!! --- as I well learned when David Murray played a free pianoless trio set here in Kansas City about 6 or 7 years ago, at an outside FREE festival. Maybe like 125 people were paying any attention at all to Murray - and this was with Andrew Cyrille on drums and a good bass player (who's name I forget). 2,000, hell - maybe closer to 2,500?? - turn out for Andrew Hill in Iowa City; and maybe 150 people pay any attention to David Murray in Kansas City -- both "free to the public" situations. Don't make no sense to me. Anybody got any theories?? I've also been to well attended jazz shows (in large venues) in Lawrence Kansas (home of the University of Kansas), which is a town with a MUCH smaller population than Kansas City. And it wasn't at all "just college kids" there. No, I'm convinced that half or more of the people who were there were from town. Sure, maybe 1/4th drove from Kansas City (like myself), but the 'per-capita' attendence of town-folk from Lawrence (or Columbia, in the case of the Dave Holland show), has to be MUCH, MUCH higher than it is for similar shows in the imediate Kansas City area. And I'm sure the same is true of St. Louis. What gives??

If that's the case, Greg, then why do you engage in such behavior?? And why so often?? How does a dozen (or over time, dozens and dozens!!) of personally charged and insulting posts of a highly inflammatory nature, do anything to further the "real" discussion that you claim to enjoy more?? I think it's pretty disingenuous for you to say that you prefer a substantive discussion over a good "bash 'em as hard as you can" argument. Your behavior would tend to argue to the contrary. (And I shudder to imagine what some of these "discussions" would be like if they were face to face.)

Greg, one difference is that 98% of the people here don't engage in the level and degree of verbal combat that 2% do. And the 2% that do, make it virtually impossible for any kind of reasonable discussion of a number of topics in the Politics forum. I'm posting all the "Crossfire" images, because I think Crossfire (on CNN) is often one of the most useless things on television. …it, and programs just like it - where people just shout and shout at each other, never attempting to actually listen to each other (let alone try to understand where the other side is coming from), or actually to respond to what the other side is saying. Often, our Political threads turn out the same way. Earlier today, you and I had a good and healthy exchange in the "Alleged Presidential Lies" thread (see how I characterized the subject of that thread in a non-“fanning the flames” manner!) – so my point is that it is possible to have a reasonable exchange of ideas, even when people disagree. Which is certainly not what you and Chris were up to earlier today. What I'm suggesting is that a very small minority of people here on the board (including yourself, Greg, and a few others) are often soaking up all the oxygen in the Political forums. Not every day, but more often than is healthy for the board (IMHO). As someone (myself) who would also like to participate in those same Political threads, I'm getting tired of it - and I think others are too. Also, my "rant"-like response to this situation today, has been uncharacteristic of my behavior on this board, since I joined in March. I'm afraid the same cannot be said of a handful of others who post quite heavily in the Politics forums, where often "rant" is the rule, rather than the "exception".

On a day like this, thank god for threads like this one...

Greg, how the heck can any of the rest of us get in on discussions about serious world events, with you and Chris going at it like you did today?? Or Johnny and whoever else?? I'm seriously not trying to pick on you in this. And I think I've paid you more respect than many have around here, so I hope you do know I'm not trying to place all the blame on you for these kinds of things. But damn it, you are part of the problem. Not the only part, but you and the others who engage in this kind of behavior, seem to not give a flying fuck about how far you take things. NOBODY every backs down. The rhetoric only gets stirred up, faster and faster, and FASTER!!! It drifts over into other political threads. In occasionally even leaches into non-political threads. Like I said before, it ain't nothin' but...

I only got 5 right, but frankly - that's 3 or 4 more than I was expecting to get. This despite the fact that I was a part-time bartender for two years around '92-'94. Never did develop a taste for beer, I'm afraid. Killian's Red is "OK" I guess, but generally speaking, I only drink beer when there's no other choice, and/or when somebody else is buyin'. I don't think I've paid for more than dozen beers in my whole life (heck, maybe not even half-a-dozen), with my own money (not counting my first year in college). Vodka & Cranberry Juice is my typical drink these days.

Keep lookin'!! I found a used McLean mosaic once for $40 (this was as recently as about a year ago, 18 months ago tops). I already had it, and gave it to a buddy of mine for two crisp $20 bills. At that time, it had gone for as much as $250 on eBay, and nearly always at least $200.

I was just about to post this here, from the other thread. Just an example of how the Political threads can sometimes have an effect on the board as a whole. Food for thought.

Not on the board in general, not by a long shot. But in a disturbing number of "Political" threads, quite a few had devolved into some pretty serious knockdown drag out fights, which have often gotten very personal. I would agree that things have gotten worse since Greg joined (sorry Greg, that's the way I see it). BUT, it takes two to tango, and more than two are tangoing (sp?) with Greg - and sometimes tangoing with each other as well. I'm not saying we all need to suddenly be PC about everything. (Gack!!!) But man, some of the more heated threads have really gone way too far. For instance, check out where the thread I originally referenced has gone, just since I started this thread??? Link: Suicide Bomber Kills 20 on Israeli Bus, Let's blame Bush here as well!

I wholeheartedly agree. I totally agree (really I do!!), but when's that gonna happen?? When??? Somebody tell me there's any kind of real chance that the people we're talking about here (not gonna name names), are ever gonna change their behavior - without some threat of real consequences for their actions. I mean, set the bar really high ---- but as it exists now, there is no bar (or nearly none). And in my opinion, a very small handful of blowhards are sometimes making it impossible for most of us to participate in any kind of reasonable discussion. (Note, I said "sometimes" - I'm not suggesting the sky is falling.) I'm totally for free-speech, 100% - but this isn't a truly "public" forum, and frankly b3-er has the right to handle things however he likes, whether we like it not. He's done such a great job in being hands-off in nearly everything, except when truly necessary --- that I trust that he's capable of implementing fair standards with reasonable expectations of behavior, and a fairly high threshold (number) of offences necessary before any kind of action is taken. And the fact that he can presumably ban someone from one particular forum is particularly good, in so much as this kind of shit rarely happens anywhere but in the politics forum.

Agree with you on both counts, ABrass, 100%. Maybe it'd be nice to have a "Politics" forum, and a "Current Events" forum.

What is in the center of the hub cap? It looks like a U-boat with the crew standing on top. Clue me in man! Looks like a factory to me, presumably the factory where the cars get builted. :rsmile:

Is this really such a bad thing to expect from people?? I mean, I don't think anyone has suggested anything close to censoring language. I mean, what the fuck?? (Just testing. ) How about we set the threshold pretty high, like 10 personal attacks (as determined by the judge, jury, and executioner himself, b3-er), and if you get any more than that - you're kicked out of just the Political forum for 2 weeks. Then after those two weeks, you can get let back into "Politics", and then with only 3 more personal attacks - you're out for a whole 2 months. I'm throwing around some pretty big numbers here - I mean "10" is quite a lot of personal attacks for someone to play with, before they get the boot. And getting the boot (initially, at least) would only be temporary. ( And heck, with thresholds like that - you could still call people "fat fucks" every now and then, without any real loss of privileges. ) Or anyway, something like that. But having some kind of systematic process in place would give b3-er a chance to apply some sense of fair justice to situations like this, where otherwise he would simply have to rely on his gut instinct.

I absolutely LOVE the cover of this one - - nearly as much as a few "classic BN titles", if you must know. I mean, look at the reflection in the center of the hubcap. This may be one of the coolest non-BN covers I've ever seen. But you gotta read the description of it: What a cool concept!! Wish it had turned out better - but man, what a cool idea!!

This is EXACTLY what I'm saying. TOTALLY!! Thanks for hearing me out. I really appreciate it!! As far as the rest of your suggestion goes, I would have to think about it some more, especially about the details. But even without having given it too much thought, I do find the idea intriguing. The trick would be to set up the rules to be loose enough so as not to unduly stifle free speech (which, believe it or not, I believe in very strongly). Tricky thing to do, but perhaps it could be done. Let me think about this some more and get back to you, via this thread.

I guess I'm just too thin-skinned. But I will say that sometimes the Political forum reminds me of a big gathering of people, where there are a very small number of people in one corner having a huge shouting match which drowns out anything anyone else has to say if they try to get in on the same discussion topics. And if anyone else starts a similar discussion elsewhere in the room, then loudmouths join in and drown out that discussion too. Isn't always the case, but it is more frequently than I'd prefer. And "Politics" is the only forum where this is the case. I probably ought to shut up about this now. I often wonder the same thing.

I beg to differ. You must place quite a bit of importance on them, because you (and others) devote so much energy towards creating those very same squabbles (in great numbers, I might add). After all, it's not like all this Political talk (from any of us) really does any good in the world, in terms of really changing anything. And certainly not the extreme arguments we see around here frequently.

I agree Jim, it's not too hard to avoid Politics completely around here. I do often do that. But as someone who'd like to engage in some of that discussion (in some kind of meaningful way), it's kinda difficult when the inmates are controlling the insane asylum. (Then again, that describes most of this board, so why should Politics be any different. ) 'Cept some of the inmates in Politics are different, and don't seem to be nearly as good natured as the rest of us folk. We've got guys here who 80% and 90% of their posts are in Politics, and in some cases - well over half of that is reposting article after article from other sources, with no additional commentary of their own. Strange place this is.

A classic. Just for the record, me and Andrew Hill really look like this:

Most of the time that's me too, though I would like to participate in the politics forum more than I do. BUT, I do happen to know of a number of people who make AAJ their home specifically because of volume of political discussion here. (One is a guy I know personally from the Kansas City area, and he flat-out ignores our board because of it.) Some days it's nearly half of all the active posts on our board, and it's mostly just a very small handful of people who are driving it. Again, I'm not suggesting we nuke the politics forum, or ban anybody.

and then... No, not enough. There cannot be enough condemnation when a bus full of children is specifically targeted to be blown up. Comprende? And rooster, can you be any more petty. You're pissed off because of your idiotic theory that we lose some "good jazz people" because of these posts when innocent people are missing their limbs? How fucked up is that? Greg. I don't really know how to respond to this yet. Other than to say that a very small number of people (from both ideological sides of the fence - yourself included) are sometimes making it all but impossible for the rest of us to engage in any kind of meaningful discussion of some kinds of topics. While it isn't every single political thread, this also isn't just an occasional thing either. I'm NOT suggesting anyone be banned from the board. But I would ask that everyone consider what kind of climate this kind of political banter (if that's what you call it), creates for the rest of us on the board. And also to consider what good it can create where just two or three or four people are engaged in what amounts to just a huge pissing contest. That's all I'm gonna say for the moment. Again, I'm not suggesting anyone be banned from the board. I'm asking for some calm, level-headed introspection from the people who I think know who I'm talking about. It's not just a few on the Right - it's a few on the Left too.