Larry Kart

But your ironic point was the one I was making -- i.e. that the specific bad ethical behavior that Q engaged in and that we were talking about was irrelevant to his getting, in this case, the job as Gore's producer. Also -- BTW and IIRC -- getting that Gore gig was no picnic and/or big plum. It only became so after "It's My Party (And I'll Cry If I Want To)," and, again IIRC, Q and Gore were at loggerheads over whether to even record the tune, though I don't recall who was on which side.

But isn't that exactly the point I made above?

Uh, yeah, to be known as a "manager who can deliver product". A very corporate thing to be, and what you do if you want to climb that ladder. The more of a "high level" view you can take and still deliver, the bigger role you get "rewarded" with. That's how an industry works! Pathology? Unless you call a pathology (and if you did, I don't know if you'd be wholly wrong...), then...are you serious? First of all, two words - Greg Phillinganes. Second of all - if Quincy Jones had been a Well-Behaved Ethical Musical Citizen like so many other of his peers, how the fuck do you think he would ever have been in the position to produce Michael Jackson in the first place? Would not have happened. He'd have been another Lalo Schiffrin or Oliver Nelson of Pat Williams or on and on and on, some guy who was well-respected and well employed, but never somebody who was in the boardroom making decisions about how the next album by The Hottest Thing Ever was going to sound. He'd be a guy getting the calls, not the guy making them. Quincy figured early on that he wanted to be one of those guys in that room at that time, and he became one. I don't call that pathology, I call it The Real American Way Of Doing Business. It's not what I want, it's not what most of us here want, but it's something that Quincy Jones wanted, and he figured out how to get it. The American Dream baby, the American Fucking Dream. Q's behavior, as described in my previous post, had little or nothing to do with "good, old-fashioned 'me first' American corporate ambition/careerism." Q still would have gotten the bigger and better industry gigs he was going to get if the charts that weren't his that he put his name on had been credited to Billy Byers, Melba Liston, et al. Why would anyone who had the power to give Q a seat at the big-boys' table have cared one bit whether he or Byers wrote a particular chart on a damn jazz album? As you say, he still would have been "known as a 'manager who can deliver product.' A very corporate thing to be, and what you do if you want to climb that ladder. The more of a 'high level' view you can take and still deliver, the bigger role you get 'rewarded' with. That's how an industry works!" The point, though, as I said before, is that Q wanted/needed to do what he did here not in order to advance in the industry -- which again couldn't have cared less if Q actually wrote those charts he put his name on as long as the product was delivered -- but rather (so it would seem) for personal ego reasons. The American Dream had nada to do with it, unless I suppose one needs to prove to oneself that one can be a---hole when it isn't necessary to be one before one can be a--hole when it is necessary to be one.

What Q did was somewhat or notably different in kind than what Irving Mills, Goodman, Kenton, you name it, did. Their motives were largely a matter of money -- if their names were on the songs, they got royalties, often a whole lot of money if the song was a hit. Also, for someone like Kenton, who assiduously shaped the style of his bands, a chart in the Kenton style that was not actually his or all his but was credited to him was in effect a Kenton chart. See Ellington in this respect, of course, not in terms of arranging per se but in assembling compositions from strains and licks that came from band members. Now, Q, as I mentioned above, had a quite distinctive arranging style, yet after a certain point (and I'm confining myself only to the period when he was writing for big bands, not his later "pop" period) very few if any charts that were said to be Q's were written by him or even SOUNDED one bit like they were written by him. This, I submit, is a different sort of thing than the ones mentioned above and implies that his motive was not primarily (or even at all) money per se (because no, or no significant, royalty income probably would be involved) but was instead some manifestation of Q's ego. That is, it was important to him that he continue to be KNOWN for doing something that he no longer was willing or chose to do, and that his way of accomplishing that goal was take away the "ego income" of his colleagues in the business. Was this merely a matter of convenience on Q's part or something a fair bit stranger, even pathological? I don't know. But I do know that his peers regarded his behavior as strange and (depending on their own temperaments and degree of involvement) more than a fair bit ugly. Also, again, they found it different than the old Mills, Goodman, etc., type of thing, where the bandleader or manager put his name on a tune to garner a share of the royalties. P.S. FWIW, when Q was doing things like M. Jackson's "Thriller," it probably was the case the was the "author" of those albums as much as Jackson was.

Though I'll say (contra Sangrey) that Q's methods of appropriation were both notorious and close to unique (in part that's because his victims were his present and former colleagues in terms of age and mileu, to whom his relationship was not that of a Kenton, a Basie, et al. -- indeed many of them were older figures, and Q's behavior was regarded as something of a scandal by his peers at that time, not as a variation on SOP), coming at the Q question from a somewhat different perspective, who has thoughts about what was the last distinctive Q chart or composition -- this because his style as an arranger in particular was quite distinctive and (if one is in that mood) also clever and charming. Certainly the charts on "This Is How I Feel About Jazz" are his work and probably his best. Otherwise, I'd say that a while down the road "For Lena and Lennie" definitely was his. What of note am I missing?

Chewy -- Assuming your topic title ("What's so great about this?") is a question about the quality of the album and not about Jones' right to put his name on it, the answer is that there's some very good music there, especially on the date with the sax section. I particularly enjoy the opportunity to hear Pepper alongside Carter, his early boss and one of his models.

Caught that band live at the London House in Chicago. Wow. The leader is on fire too, but the two Johnny Griffin Riverside albums with Kenny Drew, Wilbur Ware, and Philly Joe Jones. What a rhythm section that was! And Ware's solos!

This latter-day Amy album is quite nice: http://www.freshsoundrecords.com/peace_for_love-cd-1864.html

And we're proud of it! Signed, John Altwerger

Haven't seen anything in print or on-line about why the Ravens were so disorganized and hurried getting off that final field goal attempt (I yelled about this as it was happening, not after the fact) -- didn't everyone on the sideline know that's what they were going to do? -- and further, on that late Ravens drive that ended with a failed half-assed third-down running play call on (I think) third-and-three after a time out (half-assed because it was a play that relied on cutsily faking out the Patriots, not on skill or power) why did John Harbaugh angrily push away offensive co-ordinator Cam Cameron before he called that time out. Seems like the Ravens' sideline was aleady f----- up.

Georgie Auld

Leo Parker.

All things being equal, John Gilmore.

Just an odd thought, but Benny Golson?

peterintoronto -- See this Forum rule: 8) We do not allow commenting on the price of wares in the "Offering/Looking for" forum. If you feel a post is extortionate or otherwise problematic, please report the post to the moderators.

"WWII had its impact, Vietnam had its, and lord only knows what impact our various desert storms are having (I think I can tell, but it's too damn ugly and too damn current to be objective about it...). Wars fuck with people, no way around it." Yes, but all different cases and not merely a matter of f------ with people. In the view of a lot of people back then (pro and con and you name it), WWII violently propelled America into the 20th Century, from which much of the country had been shrinking until then. That Graettinger piece wasn't titled "This Modern World" for nothing. Sure, lots of fantasies involved there, but I'm old enough to recall reading articles in Look and Colliers c. 1947-8 about how ten years down the road people would be commuting to work via individual mini-helicopters they would wear on their backs. Laugh if you will, but such fantasies, with in this case their blend of "individualism" and new technologies, were potent and part of a perhaps forgotten brew that has in part led to what we are. Consider, for one, the fairly broad belief that the Internet et al. has fundamentally altered our world(s). Not saying that's not true (I'm in no position to judge), but I think that the belief that it's so is in part a matter of belief/desire that seems to me to be peculiarly American and not unconnected with one strain of Kentonian-ism.

Based on "neurotic insecure grandiosity"? Geez -- sounds like something I might have written. Certainly a point worth entertaining, but it should extend almost unbroken from Kenton to his onetime audience of young true believers. I recall, in particular, some things that one member of that audience, Mort Sahl, said about what he and others took (in that postwar social context) as the primal rebelliousness of the Kenton sound -- something overtly "modern" shoving aside all that was "old" and in the way of "progress." One should never forget the impact that WWII had socially on much of America.

Agree about vintage Perkins (with later Perkins being IMO a more or less odd, poignant and meaningful trip). And OK, I suppose, about where Cooper got to being relative to where he was before (which could in a sense be said about anyone) -- but I don't know if you know where Cooper eventually did get to, which if so makes your "walking on a treadmill while riding a train" image rather amorphous. Again, though, only "if so." BTW that 1990 album of Cooper's that I like a lot is "For All We Know" (Fresh Sound") -- one of the label's wholly legit issues, for those who care. Fine late Cooper. too, from 1993, the year of his death, on the "Bob Cooper-Conte Candoli Quintet" (VSOP) -- with a meaty choice of tunes, including "Confirmation," "Tin Tin Deo," "Airegin," "Hackensack," "Ow!," and "Con Alma."

I admire Giuffre, especially on clarinet, and as an often successful adventurer both as a leader and composer, but IMO tenor was not his best instrument, with the possible exception of that odd brief period in 1959-60 when he tried to emulate Rollins (the results there were sort of weird but interesting). On the West Coast at the time that Cooper recording you linked to was made, I found Cooper to be the more satisfying/interesting player -- and again later Cooper grew considerably. Getting back to Giuffre circa 1956-57 on tenor, I can think of a good many tenormen on that scene that I would prefer. Given all of Giuffre's other virtues, on that horn at that time he often seemed to me to be more or less of a huffer and puffer in any "blowing" context (which I know ain't everything, but it is something, and he did make a lot recordings of that sort) and of significant value on tenor only in a relatively abstract "experimental" setting, like that intriguing time-free date he did for Capitol with Jack Sheldon and drummer Artie Anton.

I wasn't at the Lighthouse in its heyday, but "leisure music for the plush ones" sounds quite harsh and off, based on what I've read about that scene and the relation of the music to its actual often rather shaggy, even Five Spot-like (given the place and time) audience there. I pretty much agree with P. Friedman about the virtues of Bob Cooper's tenor playing versus those of Giuffre. Also, Cooper FWIW got even better with age; his final album with Lou Levy and others is quite something IMO.

Although, according to Ted Gioia, Teddy Edwards was the house tenor player before Bob Cooper. Gioia recounts that as the time the tide began to turn, so to speak. Exactly. But the turning of the tide was not racist per se or overtly, I think, but stylistic, though clearly there were some affinities and non-affinites of racial sensibility at work within those stylistic affinities. Also, at least eventually, the Lighthouse-type guys (in the broad sense) were associating in the studios during the days and brought those daytime associations to their nightime associations, and Teddy Edwards et al. were not in the studios. Here Buddy Collete might be thought of as an equivocal figure, though "equivocal" is quite not what I mean. Stylistically he was as "white" if you will as any West Coaster (but that's unfair; musically Colette was just himself), and he had all the reading and doubling/tripling skills for studio work, which he did a lot of. Further, when he encountered overt racism in the studios, in the unions, on TV shows, and elsewhere, Collete very effectively and courageously led the fight against it. And his choice of guys to play with -- as a band member with Chico Hamilton for one and as a leader himself -- seemed to be based on nothing other than the guys with whom he felt comfortable musically.

Bill F -- I think you mean Terry Shannon. On Deuchar's "Pub Crawling," drummer Tony Crombie, who alternates with Seaman, is rather Blakey-esque. Scott for sure dug the Hankenstein. But I still get the feeling that there was a distinctive Dameron-esque strain at work among some of those Brit modernists, at least for a while. It may have been as simple as affinity plus access -- access, in person and on record, being far more haphazard in the late '40s/early '50s than in later years. Did the band with Miles and Tadd that played Paris in 1949 stop over in Britain, or were some key Brits at that Paris festival? Did some of the Brits who came to the U.S. in shipboard bands and stayed for a while to hang out and in some cases study -- as Ronnie Ball, Bruce Turner, and Peter Ind did with Tristano -- catch Tadd's band with Navarro and Allen Eager at the Royal Roost, either in-person or on its frequent radio broadcasts? IIRC and FWIW, a fair number of Brit modernist-inclined critics were also drawn to Dameron's music. Perhaps that was largely because the homegrown guys they dug were into that music, but something tells me that there was just a rhyme in sensibility between Tadd and some strain in the Brisish character. BTW, IIRC another Brit leader and soloist who was heavily into Dameron was tenor saxophonist Kenny Graham.

A quick sampling of that Deuchar shows as much of a Mulligan/West Coast influence as Dameron, IMO, though. Don't agree. Among the soloists, Deuchar is pretty much out of Navarro (strikingly so, but with what I fancy to be a certain individual Scottish flavor), and I don't recall a chart or a piece that isn't fairly Dameron-esque nor any that are West Coast- or Mulligan-like. Two older Brit trumpeters who had some of that flavor I think were Eddie Blair and Bobby Pratt -- the latter two regulars with Ted Heath I believe. All three can be heard to nice effect on composer/arranger Johnny Keating's Dot album "Swinging Scots." Perhaps a sectionman fondness for/need to display a certain brassiness and sheen lay behind their apparent affinity for Navarro over Gillespie or Davis. In particular, not only do I hear some fairly specific Dameron-like manuevers in the pieces and voicings, but the whole mood of the music is what might called lyrical-muscular, and IIRC it's devoid of the contrapuntal or mock-contrapuntal devices that mark much West Coast work of the era. Also, a tenorman as forceful as Tubby Hayes would have blown apart any West Coast date. The ins and outs of what U.S. jazz (especially in the post-war era but earlier on, too) influenced jazzmen in other countries is fascinating. The affinity of the Scandinavians (and some Germans. likes Hans Koller) for the Tristano-ites is one obvious example. Without doubt, in most cases it mostly has to do with something semi-innate in the culture on the receiving end rising up to mate with a particular aspect of the culture on the sending end, so to speak. May seem like these are minor side issues, but they may be revealing of (again, so to speak) larger things. Larry, Though you may not perceive any West Coast Jazz influence on the Jimmy Deuchar session, I certainly hear a West Coast Jazz influence in some of the post-war Scandanavian recordings. I also hear the West Coast influence in some British recordings of early Tommy Whittle , Don Rendell and Ronnie Ross. As for your comment on Tubby Hayes, it should also be remembered that such non-West Coast style players as Sonny Clark and Max Roach were briefly part of the Lighthouse Allstars. Yes, some West Coast influence on post-war Scandinavian recordings after a certain point, but most of the major Scandinavian figures who might seem to be of that sort -- Gullin, Rolf Billberg, Nils Lindberg, Domernus, Gosta Theselius, et al. -- were already themselves. The commonality, such as it was, came about because they derived mostly independently from similar models: Lester Young and the 30's Basie Band sensibility (direct and as filtered the Getz et. al), the Tristano-ites (a very strong force in Scandinavian circles, more so I would say than on the West Coast), and the Miles Davis "Birth of the Cool" Band. FWIW and IMO, the earliest and one of the best BOC-influenced ensembles was the Rolf Ericson Octet that recorded four titles (including "Miles Away," arrangements by Theselius) on Sept. 19, 1950. I should add that I believe that whatever resemblance there might be between the Dave Brubeck/Dave Van Kreidt Octet and the BOC band was an accidental rhyme, not a matter of influence or imitation in either direction. Further, FWIW, I feel that the Gullin of the 1950s was a brilliant soloist and a far more notable player than the Mulligan of the same period was (which is not to disparage Mulligan the composer-arranger nor to say that Mulligan didn't become a stronger soloists later on). As for Clark and Roach with the Lighthouse All-Stars, I think that was more a matter of temporary geographical-economic convenience than deep stylistic affinity. As for Ross, Whittle, Rendell, and other Britishers of that era, again I feel it was a somewhat (though only somewhat) similar situation to the Scandinavian one I mentioned above. That is, those figures were listening to Pres and Pres-derived figures like Getz et al,, and were well on the way to being or becoming their own selves stylistically before West Coast jazz essentially emerged. In other words, the developments were more parallel than a matter of British players picking on on a West Coast vibe. Of course, once the West Coast style became popular, it was natural for Brit players who had developed in a parallel manner to pick up on some of the trimmings -- because they dug them themselves and because audiences were likely to respond to them. To pick a perhaps semi-trivial example, the same reason that Mulligan found Bernie Miller's "Bernie's Tune" an attractive vehicle to blow on would have pertained to, say, Whittle or Rendell -- with the additional factor that Brit audiences that already dug Mulligan would have been pleased to hear it from the home boys.

A quick sampling of that Deuchar shows as much of a Mulligan/West Coast influence as Dameron, IMO, though. Don't agree. Among the soloists, Deuchar is pretty much out of Navarro (strikingly so, but with what I fancy to be a certain individual Scottish flavor), and I don't recall a chart or a piece that isn't fairly Dameron-esque nor any that are West Coast- or Mulligan-like. Two older Brit trumpeters who had some of that flavor I think were Eddie Blair and Bobby Pratt -- the latter two regulars with Ted Heath I believe. All three can be heard to nice effect on composer/arranger Johnny Keating's Dot album "Swinging Scots." Perhaps a sectionman fondness for/need to display a certain brassiness and sheen lay behind their apparent affinity for Navarro over Gillespie or Davis. In particular, not only do I hear some fairly specific Dameron-like manuevers in the pieces and voicings, but the whole mood of the music is what might called lyrical-muscular, and IIRC it's devoid of the contrapuntal or mock-contrapuntal devices that mark much West Coast work of the era. Also, a tenorman as forceful as Tubby Hayes would have blown apart any West Coast date. The ins and outs of what U.S. jazz (especially in the post-war era but earlier on, too) influenced jazzmen in other countries is fascinating. The affinity of the Scandinavians (and some Germans. likes Hans Koller) for the Tristano-ites is one obvious example. Without doubt, in most cases it mostly has to do with something semi-innate in the culture on the receiving end rising up to mate with a particular aspect of the culture on the sending end, so to speak. May seem like these are minor side issues, but they may be revealing of (again, so to speak) larger things.

Some have it as Never PET a Burning Dog. Anyway, my favorite is Pub Crawling With Jimmy Deuchar! Nice album, all titles named after British beers and ales. Interesting example of how strong the Tadd Dameron influence was on British jazzmen (players and composers) of that era, much more so than in the U.S.