Jazz

Lets I l l u m i n a t e ! I was bestowed with my nickname "Jazz" at a time when I would've rather stuck needles in my eyes then listen to that squawky cheesy style of old music called jazz that used the worst instrument in the world - saxaphone! I was a rocker through and through and no sissy jazz could amount to the pure musical genius of groups like Guns n Roses or Metallica. "Jazz" was a cooler than cool nickname to be blessed with and everybody loved calling me by my glorious new designation. Now, 6 years later, jazz is the most beautiful, expressive subtle style of music there is, and I hardly listen to anything else. Not only that but my dream is to be a jazz giant. I go to sleep at night dreaming of the day when I will play music that rivals (in terms of quality) even the likes of Coltrane, Monk, and Davis, and I will strive to that end confident that with enough passion, devotion, hard work, and luck, that my goal is not only a definite possibility, but a certainty!!! The irony? Oh yes, the irony, because now that I love jazz so much, my nickname spawns hate, yes hate, in the hearts of those who also aspire to be jazz giants, who think that I must have crowned myself the ruling iron fisted King in all of jazzdom. So I'm here to ask- nay...beg, I'm here to grovel, no maybe just ask, yes that's it, for your understanding in this most unusual of nicknaming situations in the entire history of this one specific situation. Your attention is much appreciated. Thank you and goodnight. Choosy moms choose jiff.

Repetitive Stress Injuries. I got em. No one told me to be careful and now I'm all about spreading awareness. I have been unable to play for about 6 months now. I still have to be careful how much I type. I finally have med insurance and am now in physical therapy. The way I injured myself was by practicing 8 hours a day with horrible technique, while my teacher was telling me I was being overly paranoid about the pain... So, what encounters have you had with this problem? How did you deal with it? Are there any warm-ups or stretches that you do before playing, or is it not a problem? Is there any awareness among the musicians you know to be careful? I would really like to hear other people's perspective.

Ha! In my book, it has the key position for RR sicilian as uncastled. Of course, this book is from '64. Maybe when I start playing again, my opponent will say "ah, I see you fight in the old style, Jazz-san". That would rock. Wow, this is really making me want to study chess again. Maybe when I feel confident enough we could play a game o'er the net? You'd prolly hand me my butt, tho. I think its interesting that you've noticed players going against the grain of their style. Imo, this would indicate that maybe they are over-intellectualizing, or over thinking their approach to their disadvantage. I think the same danger applies to playing jazz as well! As far as material imbalance, I think that is the whole fun of the game: finding strategies that transcend the ol material advantage spiel. Otherwise you just end up playing slight variations on the same games that have been played a million times. Hey if you end up playing real soon, keep me posted, pun fully intended thank you very much. I guess I don't have much more to add to the chess thread just yet, but I will do my homework and maybe ask you some questions.

Conn, I now invite you (and anyone else ) to expound on some o that chess theory! I believe we were last talking about the properties and values of the sicilian, and other more risky (daring!) openings. Personally, I haven't found an opening for black that I like as much as the sicilian classical dragon. The first one you mentioned though, was the richter-rouzer. Do you prefer the RR over the Dragon? I noticed in my theory book that there are a ton of other popular variations as well. Do you have any suggestions of what to look at first? Feel free to mention any other openings or strategies you like, I am an empty chalice awaiting cool refreshing knowledge. P.S. - any Go players on the board? Hee hee, Go/Chess players, board....

Just wanted to give a nod to the So I married an Axe Murderer reference.

If you can afford it, get a car with less miles on it. With the engine and body in reasonable condition I bet you could bargain a dealer for a good trade-in. And, you can always cannabalize the cd player/amp/speakers to save for your new car. On the other hand, 115,000 miles isn't that much if you baby it, and if you really love the car...

Okay, I didn't have time to read anyone's posts yet so sorry if I'm being redundant. I like Grant Lee Phillips/Grant Lee Buffalo, Medicine, My Bloody Valentine, Yo La Tengo, Portishead, Grandaddy, Mercury Rev (sometimes), Radiohead, Pixies... That's all I can think of for right now. The only two ones I recommend checking out are Grant Lee Phillips (pop) or Grandaddy (um, Silly Space Rock...)

Okay, a quick question for those in the know: wasn't it Bird that thought of playing his solos based off the extensions rather than the primary harmonic notes? I remember reading that somewhere, but I know there's alot of inaccurate jazz history out there...

Conn Most of your post went waaaay above my head bro! I do love chess though, I was studying it for a while but I didn't get too far before I had to study other things. I am not USCF rated, I don't want to get rated until I can kick serious butt. And I will be able to just as soon as I have the time to start studying again. I have an older book named Chess Openings: Theory and Practice by Horowitz that should get me started. What you said about the sicilian equalizing the playing field for black is really illuminating! As far as those openings being unsound, I guess I prefer the term daring. Its the ability to really go for victory without fear or hesitation that makes someone good at anything imo. P.S. - Anyone that stands up shaky after an intense chess game is my kind of chess player!

Conn, I am at that oh so awkward phase where I can sense the innate power in the sicilian defense, but don't know how to use it to its fullest potential.

Two words. Tim. Curry. Curry = spicy. Conn, do I detect a sicilian defense in your chess avatar, or are you just happy to see me?

I'm gonna throw in my 2 cents with randissimo's 2 cents. That makes 4 cents. I'm no longer making any cents, so I'll get on with it already (get it? cents, sense? Its a pun, a play on words, see? sure sure...) I guess I don't really like or dislike vocal jazz as a rule, I just like what is (to my ear) musical. And as much as I do love Ella, the vocalist who really captured my heart is Carmen Mcrae. For lots of reasons: her interpretation of head melodies is awesome - imo really great melodic deconstruction, she's really helped me to understand that it's not a jazz musician's job to play off a page but to express a melody differently as appropriate for that unique moment; her scat soloing is really great - great sensibility, rhythmic/melodic development, lotsa blues (strength or weakness?); she really interacts with the musicians she's performing with - this is my favorite thing about jazz, it becomes closely related to a living language at the highest levels. Well, that is my whole spiel! Hope I contributed something to the discussion. The views contained in this post are not necessarily held by those who run this site. Organissimo or the owner of the Organissimo Forums may not be held liable for the content expressed herein. This message is suitable for children over five years of age as conformed to the standards of the Internet Posting Authority message board rating system. The IPA has also determined that any quotations around a poster's name (i.e. "Jazz") shall be met with a fine not to exceed three chickens and one cow (please refer to the IPA "Agrarian Barter to Modern Currency" conversion table for comparable currency value) and one smilie face with the tongue sticking out. This announcement brought to you by the Friends of Stuff. Stuff, without it, there'd be nothing at all!

Okay guys, feel free to tell me if this is a totally obvious and/or stupid question but I'm pretty sure I've heard Monk employ this half-step ii-V idea in ALOT of his compositions, but I don't think he restricted himself to just the bridge... Also, my brain wants to interperet the above progression as a string of tritone subs leading to the tritone sub of F7... Do I have it all wrong??

Ha! I would have to be an idiot to do that, Mr. Nessa! It's just hard sorting things out you know? For a while I took everything my teachers said as gospel. Then I realized that was a dumb thing to do and then rebelled against everything anyone ever told me. Also dumb. Now I'm trying to find that line where I think for myself, but leave alot of room for learning and change.

While I have my own views on what art is, I don't feel nearly educated enough to go into detail without getting reamed! My basic views, though, stem from the idea that art is not solely self expression, that there should be some minimal amount of form present. I don't know, maybe that opinion will change with the more I learn... I totally do agree that analytical thought should never take precedent over expression and emotion. Um, what else... I don't consider myself nearly trained enough to be "classically trained" as is evident by my lack of knowledge of such an important theory as the Lydian Chromatic Concept. I do feel that I have devoted an enormous amount of time and sincere effort to understanding the foundations of theory. Liked the racecar analogy! I also know that almost everyone I meet, whether on the net or in real life, REALLY disagree with the way I go about music. All I can say is that I follow my instincts, and try not to second guess my methods. I guess that comes from not having a whole lot of people to help me. Its been especially hard in jazz, because ANYTHING I've learned about jazz was 99% me beating my head against the wall. Which is why I really appreciate having a cool place like this to ask questions!! Anyways, thanks everyone for not ignoring me, every new opinion and suggestion is another challenge to the way I look at things, and I really appreciate that.

Wow. You are the King of Inefficientnessicity!! I hereby present to you the Great Eye:

Red, Thanks for all your suggestions and thoughts, I feel they've been a real help! Impossible, Thank you for your recommendations and the link to the website! In all honesty, I'm not sure if I'm really ready to understand ag, but I think its time to get my feet wet. I think for a long time, my ear just wasn't ready to even try, but now my ear is finally starting to catch up with my analytical studies. As far as stuff being outside of your range of knowledge, nah not really. Its kind of just jargon for those things that anyone is capable of hearing. The reason I latched on to theory so hard was because I was a really weak musician, and I needed the boost. On the other hand, I think theory studies can only add to someone's knowledge, and that's always a good thing. Anyways, enough of my ramblin. Thanks to everyone who responded!

Are you a big fan of Electr-o-Pura then? I think that's the most distorted/feedback-y album I own by them.

Thanks guys! I am starting to get the picture that I did something akin to walking into a room full of mathematicians and asking a question like "what is calculus", and expecting really specific answers. Seriously though, this how little I actually know about the subject. Red, Your responses are very thoughtful and I don't find them even a bit pretentious!! Hey, technically Ionian and Aeolian are modes! Ha ha I win!! Just kidding of course. Sounds like something I really need to look into. I will definitely do so. So, I guess that would be why avante garde is so hard to listen to for some people? You kind of have to take it on its own terms? In your own opinion, do you think this may be why many jazz enthusiasts get ruffled when a fellow jazz enthusiast doesn't like ANY ag at all? I mean, straight ahead, as tonal as it is, sounds way different than today's popular music. There is a fair amount of taking straight ahead "on its own terms" because of this, so its a bit hypocritical to not give ag a chance... I hope any of that made a lick of sense.... I think this may be my main problem (some of those preconceptions you mentioned). The way my mind works right now, I usually don't emotionally connect with music until I can at least get a glimpse of its inner workings. Haha, don't worry. I won't ask you for a treatise! I have the prof's name, and the name of the theory, I should be able to find out about it. Would you mind if I asked you any questions about it in the future? Me too. I end up sounding like such a jerk, though. I liked the analytical side of music so much I almost decided to become a theory major! Anyways Red, thanks so much for your post. You said alot of things that I was reaching for in my head. I also realized a couple of things about the way I think while I was being challenged by your words, so I definitely feel that I have been enriched by this experience. Clinton, Well, according to the article that Mike kindly provided for me, I'm thinking of "expressionism". Some of the artists/albums that he lists as expressionism are: Albert Ayler - Spiritual Unity; Charles Gayle - Touchin on Trane; Archie Shepp - Fire Music. Definitely these are albums I will be trying to get a hold of. Also, if you have any recommendations of recordings you consider important, I would like to hear your opinions. Thanks to Mike for the resources he posted for me!

I am also a fan of this band, but I haven't heard this album yet! I love it when they do that "late night vibe", in my opinion its what they are best at.

Jmjk, Well, that's what its all about, imho. Making the old new again is one of the best ways to go about music! I totally think that's what jazz is about too. Joe, I think I've been subconsciously avoiding my "stats" cause they're pretty embarrassing. I've been playing guitar for at least 7 years, but I'm still not any good! About 3 years into my playing, I put down my guitar to study theory in my local school because I noticed I wasn't getting any better, or writing anything worthwile. towards the last classes of the music program I really got into jazz, and decided that if I was going to be any kind of musician, I wanted to be a jazz musician. So, my current goal is just to get the foundations down so I can play standards convincingly... Oh yeah, I'm pretty sure I had He-Man on my lunchbox, now you can guess how old I am!! ABrass and Joe - thank you guys for all the bluegrass recommendations! I'll try to scrape together some scratch so's I can get a couple. I'll check out the Organissimo mp3's too...

Wow! Thank you so much for the warm welcome! There's some really great stuff in this thread, someone mentioned the Blind Boys, who I've just recently discovered. I'm also glad I'm not the only one to find bluegrass so entrancing, does anyone have any good bluegrass recommendations? I also wanted to say that I thought jmjk's approach to music is really cool: common tone extended harmonies with the bass in the extensions.... pretty hip!

Well, geez. I said this: As in that is no longer my opinion, I am willing to try and understand more about it, and I thought this would be a good place to ask about it. I can't possibly see what relevance my PAST opinion, no matter how uninformed, has to do with this current conversation. I'm sorry that I failed to acknowledge your contribution, but there was so much to type I guess I just left it out. Rest assured I have not ignored the material both you and Red have recommended to me. My thinking processes are different from most people's. I don't know, it seems to work for me, except on jazz discussion boards. Lastly, To tell me that "it seems something is definitely lacking in your theory education" is rude to say the least. There are many ways to express surprise without being rude, or better yet, you could have kept that to yourself. I don't believe that I have claimed to know everything about theory. In fact I explicitly said that I didn't consider myself an expert in theory, just a serious student. For you to make a snide comment at a student asking a legitimate question is inappropriate for a jazz educator. Especially if the question is about something so important as "the only theoretical concept that jazz has produced." In fact, the only mention you made of the Lydian Chromatic Concept was to tell me I didn't know about it! AFTER I said that myself! Point is this: I am unfamiliar with atonalism and I don't understand it. I am unfamiliar with avante garde, free jazz, and improvised music; and I don't understand them. I thought I could get a little perspective from people who know more than me BEFORE I start beating my head against the wall trying to figure it out. Anyways, all that aside, I re-read your post, and besides the comment about my lacking education, I can take your word for it that you were not trying to be aggressive. I think I just read that comment on my education and interpreted the rest in a defensive way. Anyways, I will be sure to examine the "required listening" list and other materials you have recommended. Jazz

I've been playing guitar for a while now, though I've had to take an extended break. I'm very interested in becoming a well rounded jazz musician, with a variety of instruments under my belt, but right now guitar is pretty much the only instrument I'm comfortable with. Anyways, its nice to see a jazz guitar thread! I'm very un-savvy with the tech stuff, so this is very interesting stuff!

Mike, I have to say I'm very surprised. I may be misreading your post but you are coming off rather aggressively. I would understand it if I was making a value statement on the music (avant garde sucks, free jazz is great etc.), but all I'm doing is asking questions! The very reason I posted this was to get a better perspective on a style of music that I have very little experience with. As far as insulting my theory education, I don't think you have a right to do that. I saw something I had never heard of and I asked about it. Isn't that how I am supposed to learn? Should I have pretended to be hip to George Russell so that I wouldn't look the fool? I would be very surprised if you knew everything there was to know about everything. If you don't feel like you can help me without naming specific names then that is fine as I am unable to name specific songs/artists. If you do not like the tone of my posts, however, there is no need to even respond at all. I would consider this preferable on both of our parts rather than getting into a pissing contest.