connoisseur series500

Come on everyone: don't forget to list prices if you can. I think that would be helpful to all so that we can all get an idea about how much things go for. Agreed?

Told you all that Caribbean immigrants do well in the States!

Here's another tradition brought over from BNBB: use this thread to list some things you recently found in a store or anywhere else. Today, I stopped in an inner city cd shop and picked up Jim Hall, CONCIERTO and Charles Lloyd, THE CALL. I had no previous knowledge about the sound of these two sessions, but i like em so far! Bought them for $6 each. Let's hear yours...

Just got my copy in the mail today Hang in there Mark, it shows up on ebay frequently. I'll send you the link when the next one turns up. Now "Stop and Listen"...that one appears to be a tougher one to locate.

Thanks for your comments, Rooster. This is a difficult issue to deal with here in the States. As mentioned in an earlier thread, I grew up with black people and have been with them all my life, aside from an 11-year stint in Asia. Which brings up an anecdote: Once in Bangkok I was waiting for one of the buses at a stop along with the usual small crowd doing the same thing. A bus stopped and disgorged three black people who I pretty quickly assessed were African tourists. They stood by in order to wait for a connecting bus. After some time, these three guys seemed to become more and more isolated as the boundary which separated them from the other people waiting for a bus seemed to grow larger and larger. I decided to take action and with some ostentation purposely stood next to them. This was years ago, and I don't recall if I said anything or vice versa; or what their expressions showed, but the racial paranoia was palpable and I wanted nothing to do with it. Thai people aren't bad people or anything, and I don't want to imply any such thing, but their society like much of Asia is homogenous. I suppose it was difficult for them. Anyway, race relations is a taboo subject here in America; and we bandy the term of "racism" around a little too easily when some people try to express themselves on the subject. I hope along with Rooster and Chuck that others will post their thoughts as well.

We've had black sales people join us before and they were well-showered with extra leads and training and so on; that's what I mean by extra help. I'm in financial sales and there are currently no blacks in our office. The ones that came in never lasted long, but neither does anyone else for that matter. It's a tough occupation. Actually, I thought about my statement about exchanging places and now feel that it would depend on what we mean by exchanging places. Do we mean that I suddenly develop dark skin? If so, I would do it, I think. (Obviously, I would have to really think it over before making the final decision.) I would do it because I already have all the skills, and knowledge and life experience that I do have, and I feel that I would advance rather easier. Imagine if I were an applicant for a teaching position at a college or something, I feel I would have a tremendous advantage if I were black. Now if we mean that would I have preferred being born black and likely to have been born in the hood or some such place, then the obvious answer is "no!" Moose probably meant the latter situation in posing his hypothetical case. Many black Americans start off disadvantaged if only because they are less likely to inherit some money or assets like white Americans or Asian Americans are likely to do. I try to encourage my black clients to save for the future and to save for the next generation. Of course, I encourage everyone else to do this as well. And I've also been thinking about what Noj said about there being more of a class bias than a racial one. God, that seems true to me. My black neighbors are treated like equals in every way; but then we are all middleclass. If we were in a neighborhood with punks (both black and white) then I would definitely not want my son to associate with them in any way. One of my neighbors has a son, but he's too young to play with mine. Hey guys, what can I say? There is little at least-overt racism on my street. Can't speak for your towns and areas. Of course, I don't think anyone would want to hang out in the Hood. In fact, Willy, one of my neighbors, says he was brought up there. He's a terrific person and a trusted neighbor. My other neighbor is a cop, but although we talk about lots of stuff, we haven't talked about his upbringing.

I love this place too. Although I'm a member at AAJ, I don't post there anymore.

Moose, I'm taking a quick break from work here and am unable to provide a long response; but a few thoughts come to mind. We definitely disagree on much here. I reiterate that Aff. Action is a racist law; and I reiterate that black Americans are equal under the law. And this is ALL that the government is responsible for. That inequality or racism exists in social spheres is a whole other issue. You cannot seek to correct that by passing laws which promote one race over any other. I am inclined also to agree with Noj and Rooster that much of the social racism is more of a class racism; but that's another subject. Laws designed to "correct inequality" by fostering another kind of inequality will never be supported by me. Sorry! You say that the culture of America from day one has been designed to prevent African Americans from achieving equality with the whites. I am inclined to agree with you and don't dispute this. I would also add that the culture of black America pretty much works towards the same end. Still, the main point of my argument is that equality exists under law; and that is the main function of the government, in my view. Aff. Action is an unequal law. You pose the question: do you think that trading places with African-Americans would benefit white Americans at all? I respond to this with great honesty: socially, no way! but professionally, it would be a tremendous boost! If I were black in my sales job, the manager would be all over me and would offer extra benefits and aid. No doubt in my mind. I've seen it in action, my friend. Perhaps you misunderstand my message here: in social terms I do not argue that black Americans have a tougher go and the playing field is not level; but they have the decided--yes, unequal--edge in legal terms, under programs such as Aff. action. When you gonna start an Aff. Action program to benefit white athletes, so they can get scholarships and a chance to make into the professional leagues (with some help from an NFL or NBA Aff. Action type of program?) It's nonsense my friend.

I like IRON CITY quite a bit. I cannot, however, chime in regarding whether it is Big John or Larry Young on organ. I don't happen to know.

Mr Christiern always advances an Ultra Liberal position, yet with this particular example of censorship he is silent. I do not want to place Mr Christiern in a position of hypocrisy therefore I expect that Mr Christiern will want to inform B3er that my thread of April 10 about Mr Christiern should be unlocked and that any further satirical items about Mr Christiern should not be censored. Anything less by Mr Christiern would be inconsistent in the light of his Ultra Liberalism. What an infantile reaction.I agree with connoisseur's take on this, but B3er can do as he wishes with his board. It is not up to me or anyone else to tell him what to do--we all have the option of taking our pixels elsewwhere. Gee's attempt at satire was, IMO, innocuous and, as we see, eminently forgettable. I shall now proceed to forget it again. A sensible position and judgement, Chris.

Why don't you PM Bol for this one? He's got one for sale or exchange, I believe.

Appreciate the story, Chuck. Well written too.

I'm curious as to what this means. I personally support affirmative action and feel that it was a good thing. I also think giving the disadvantaged a helping hand is a good thing; why would it not be? As for fostering a culture of underacheivement, that just seems absurd to me. I think the basic difference you and I have on this issue is that you see the individual as responsible for everything. Sort of a social Darwinism as it were. I feel otherwise. When I see a culture that penalizes African-Americans in so many ways, I find it hard to understand why the one corrective action that we've tried to come up with is attacked so vehemently. I find it odd (and this is NOT directed at you personally!) that so many who are against Affirmative Action talk about the evil of basing decisions on race when they were just fine with basing decisions on race when the decision was to exclude African-Americans from the American dream... I'll try and elucidate things for you here, Moose, even though I'm bushed from work. Affirmative action is nothing but reverse racism. I oppose it for two main reasons: first, it is a racist law which promotes inequality, and exclusionism. It doesn't matter if it is promulgated with good intentions. It is exclusionary and that's "not what America is about," as Bush would say. The second reason for opposing it is more difficult to express. Many people in America believe in fostering a climate of low expectations in order to "benefit" African-Americans. This is really an evil thing to do, even if it is again done with the best intentions. You claim that blacks are excluded from the American dream based on their race. I respond that they are not. And they definitely have the legal protections. That last thing I want to see is some kind of legal backing for an unequal and racist policy such as Affirmative Action. Now that's scary, and sends the wrong message. To me it as scary as the legal sanctioning of murder, which is what the death penalty is about. To me, the laws must defend equal opportunity and equal rights. That such things don't exist on a social basis, well, there's some work to do there; but don't seek legal sanction for privileged status for any race or sex. You know it is funny: look at all the great American black jazz musicians who created a music that will endure; and look at how it was all created during the time of Jim Crow and an atmosphere where it was definitely difficult for blacks to experience the American dream. Now look at the music coming from the Affirmative Action generations: does it really compare? I'm not trying to sound elitist or anything, but Noj is basically correct: people will succeed, especially if they have the legal protections which black Americans do have. That much of the population is not succeeding is perhaps due to social restrictions. White America is partly to blame and Black America is partly to blame. The fault lies on both sides--not just on the side of White America. Their schools are often inferior to those that white kids attend; and they tend not to inherit money from their parents/grandparents like white Americans are more likely to do. This hurts for sure. But they have to deal with issues such as the collapse of the nuclear family, and a general disinterest in education. Check out how West Indian or African immigrants perform when they enter this country. You will see highly motivated and highly successful people. And yes, they are as black as black Americans are. The difference has to do with attitude and a belief in the value of education and maintaining a nuclear family. We can throw all the entitlements and Affirmative Action programs at these underachievers and I don't think we benefit them much materially. The best way for them to succeed is for them to achieve things under the aegis of full legal protection. Hmm, you Affirmative Actioners: maybe every college sports team should offer a certain amount of scholarships for white athletes in order to address the current imbalance. Is this statement nonsense? Of course it is; so is A-Action in my opinion. Hope this makes sense.

Offensive replies I can see. REALLY offensive things, such as comments about using the American flag as a toilet seat certainly should be controlled. On the other hand, discussions "heading in the wrong direction"? That's what discussions do. They mutate, change, sometimes double back...who knows where they'll go or what might be learned? If you want to be a school marm, fine, but don't think you're providing a valuable service by controlling discussion. Discussion cannot be controlled; either it runs free or it's killed. Well stated, Moose. Matches my sentiments perfectly. Big Ben says: Stay loose, censors!

Agree, Noj. By the way, you misinterpreted what I meant by growing up with good friends. I meant that you don't grow up with a bad crowd which leads you into a life of crime or whatever; but actually, your interpretation is valid as well. Adds extra depth to the statment.

It's more than just gray matter. There are many highly intelligent underachievers. It is also motivation and a lack of; it is hunger and drive and coming from a good upbringing. It is also luck: did you grow up with good friends? I am generally against laws which offer advantages to the disadvantaged. I am opposed to affirmative action, for example. To me these laws just foster a culture of underachievement. We should have a social safety net for sure, but we should not encourage low standards.

My two favorites are: UP AT MINTONS and Z.T.s BLUES The former is easy to find and good luck in finding the latter.

It would help to have a list handy. Get anything by Rueben Wilson. The guy just kicks. The two RGs I have by him are LOVE BUG and BLUE MODE. Blue Mitchell's DOWN WITH IT and Grant Green's CARRYING ON are excellent.

I did not defend Jimmy Gee at the time because I felt it was not my position to do so. I wasn't the one that was being satirized; Chris was. It was his duty to do so if he felt it necessary. If someone satirized me as Jimmy had, and he was censored for it, I probably would have objected to the act of censorship. Still, it depends on how mean the post was.

I remember the thread clearly. My impressions at the time were that it was premptorily deleted. I agree that B-3er has the right to do these things; but if good sense is not employed in these kinds of decisions then the board will fall apart as people drift away. We should try to limit censorship if it is at all necessary to have it. Just my thoughts. Thanks

The poll can be considered finished now and the big winner is Tina Brooks, TRUE BLUE; in fact, Tina Brooks was the big winner generally as three of his cds appeared in the finals. I have TRUE BLUE but like many of my cds, it has been spun only once or twice. BASRA and ETCETERA finished a close second and third. Interesting was the flop of SONNY'S CRIB, which was a big winner in a preliminary poll. It received one sympathy vote at the end. I was very intrigued by the many votes for this session and I decided to spin mine a few times. This also fell into the category of having been heard only once or twice. After listening to it some more, I feel that it is a good session, but nothing that would displace many other Conns. Thanks to everyone for participating in these polls. It was fun. Now will someone set up a big RVG playoff? Bruce H? Rooster? AfricaBrass? Pryan? Noj?

Geez, the week is going fast and I haven't yet commented on this cd. I've been listening to it over the last few days. Great session! The two bassists are incredible; McCoy is his usual great self. Trane is Trane. Freddie Hubbard plays wonderfully, and Eric Dolphy only messes up one song: I don't care for his solo on "Dahomey Dance." It seems that he is focusing on trying to make his alto sound like a bass clarinet (maybe it is one and the cd credits are wrong.) Anyway, I don't particularly care for Mr. Dolphy's music in general and got rid of all my cds where he was the session leader. He does a creditable job on the other songs. Haven't yet read the analysis on this thread yet, so it will be interesting to see what the others thought. I know a lot of people are nuts about Dolphy, but he does nothing for me. This session sounds like an Impulse session. This is Trane at his prime, in my opinion. He and McCoy worked so well together. Evin Jones is dynamite. This is a solid 5 stars (on a scale of 5) I am now going back to my Impulse Trane collection and listening to them all over again. Thanks Ole! BTW, what do you guys think of Pharoah Sanders' version of Ole on his "Heart is a Melody" cd? His version isn't as good in my opinion. Does a lot of screaming on it and it is emotionally charged, but Trane's version is a masterpiece. My Sanders cd is for sale, btw, if anyone is interested.

Don't look at me; I voted the same way you did! I wonder how often that has happened! Yeah, Moose!! Go Moose!! Snort! Snort!

Currently I'm not seeing the point of it existing in the first place. Is that for you to determine?

Her parents live in Mandeville. Ethnically, I am 50% Italian, and the remainder a Celtic-Saxon mix, and my birth there is just happenstance. I am a British and American dual citizen. Still, All Jamaicans are my brothers and sisters! Jamaicans are a wonderful mix of races. The Spanish held the island originally, and many Spanish Jews were sent there (or moved there) as a result of the Inquisition. Cromwell sent a force to capture French Hispaniola; the General of the marines and the Admiral of the fleet quarreled incessantly. They found their target to be too well fortified, and they sailed off to Jamaica to take it as a consolation prize. The Africans came, and I quote from a source not necessarily targetted at Jamaica specifically..."from Angola and the Congo; from Dahomey, Lagos, Old Calabar and the Bonny River; from the Central Niger and Hausaland; from Portuguese Guinea and the Gaboon." These are varied cultures with proud histories. The English didn't mix as well with the Africans as the French did in their colonies, but the inevitable mixing occured; and as in America, most of the Jamaicans are of mixed blood. There are even a lot of Chinese-Jamaicans. There is also a group of people of African heritage who escaped slavery into the hills while the Spanish were being defeated. They are called "Maroons," and they retained autonomy throughout British rule. They even captured and returned runaway slaves. These people are still there and remain somewhat separate from other Jamaicans. There are lots of books written about them, and I even own some of them, but haven't yet read them. Unfortunately, I don't know much about them, except for this funny story: A colored Jamaican friend of my father, who later became the Agricultural Minister for the Bahamas related that he was once driving up in the hills in Maroon country in Jamaica on some agricultural mission. The roads aren't very good and there were deep puddles in the road after frequent rains. He drove up in his land rover and accidentally splashed two muscular Maroons carrying machetes with his tires as he turned a treacherous corner. One of the Maroons turned to the other and said (I am unable to accurately imitate the lingo:) "Wha, me na tell you; dem white rass: dem no FUCKING GOOD!!" Bear in mind, that the fellow in the land rover would be considered by Americans as black. A curious difference between the Caribbean and America: In the Caribbean if you have some white blood, then you are considered white. In America, if you have just a little Negro blood, you are black!