JSngry

All of them? At once? In the same place? At the same time? THE CONCERT EVENT OF THE CENTURY!!!!

Who? Gene Pitney?

This is the one that was on the turntable of mine that got stolen back in 1979 before I actually played it. Ain't that a bitch?

Fresh Mode http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8ivvJRqazk

Up. Not just Hawk, but Stitt, Griff, all them "cutting contest" guys who came up fighting with their horns, for whom the whole thing was personal in a way that not too many people today really understand. We all be polite and shit these days. Weren't always so. J-Live nails it here.

http://www.dustygroove.com/item.php?id=dzcpmgnv88&ref=browse.php&refQ=kwfilter%3Ddj%2Bspinna%26amp%3Bincl_oos%3D1%26amp%3Bincl_cs%3D1 For those so inclined, or who think they might be, have no fear. Play it loud & live it even louder.

Was she thoroughly modern? I mean, thoroughly?

Seriously - Herbie cops to both Robert Farnon and Nelson Riddle as influences. Riddle in particular was quite adept at pulling some left-field shit into otherwise seemingly "normal" arrangements of standards. It's not an influence you'd automatically assume, obviously, but once you know it's there (and admitted to), there it is. Not always, but the whole reharmonization thing...I cna hear some of Riddle's more advanced work now and say, "yeah, that's it". Then again, Riddle copped to having a serious Ravel jones, so...

When Tristano could have written "Watermelon Man" or "Dolphin Dance", or played "One Finger Snap", then there will be room for that argument.

If you want to compare apples to apples, compare Herbie in 1965 at the Plugged Nicked to Lennie at the Half Note in 1965, I think it was. Or, ok, apples to pears - Herbie in 1968 to Sal Mosca with Lee in 1972(?) on Spirits.

I would question who was baking (mmmm, baked) that particular pie, then... Seriously - when you look at what those guys were playing as that group evolved, a lot of things come into play, not the least of which is "20th Century Classical Music", including, specifically, Bartok. To not think that these guys weren't checking damn near everything out that was "advanced"out at one point or another would not be advisable. I mean, you can hear - or not hear - what you want to hear or not hear. And really, what goes into the makeup of a musician as developed as Hancock makes a list longer than most of us would care to read, and probably includes some things that not even he knows about. It's not a 3D thing, definitely not a 2D thing.

An influence, sure. But PRIME influence? C'mon... the only way that even begins to maybe possibly semi-work is if you isolate one small part of the Total Herbie Hancock Experience and ignore all the rest of it. and fwiw, Richard Tabnik (2nd link) is a Confirmed Tristano Disciple, and they are True Believers indeed...

"...free, linear improvisation in the treble clef without chordal accompaniment, is, in my opinion, classic Tristano" If only it were that simple... that's an conclusion based on how things "sound" than what's really being played. For one thing, Lennie never really played "free" (exceptions noted, but that's a totally different concept of "free" that what we're looking at with the Herbie solo under consideration). There was always some kind of standard harmonic underpinning. Herbie's so not coming form that place on that solo. Break it down, get the lines, look at the structures, etc. "sounds like" and "is" is only a sometimes thing at best... Hell, if you really want to look at where a lot of this Herbie/Wayne stuff is coming from, look to Bartok and see what comes up as far as scalar extrapolations and that sort of thing. I surely think it would be wrong to claim that they hadn't heard or even checked out some Tristano things, but "prime influence" kind of implies something like locking yourself in a room with a big bunch of records and not coming out until you've internalized every one of them, or putting What Would Lennie Do? in your mind at some point, and...that's a bit of a stretch. Lennie was certainly a visionary in a lot of ways (but Warne was God), and a lot of his stuff needed a generation or two's space to really "resonate" in the collective ear, but if we're going to play Lennie Tristano Invented Herbie Hancock, then....no. It's just not that easy a connection to make, no if full-dimensional reality comes into play.

Musicians (ones with "modern" ears, anyway) would have heard the "modality" better/more accurately than most critics, I'd think, given that most critics tend to "hear" in general terms. For most of them, until they would have "modality" explained to them in general technical terms, they'd just hear something "different". I'm reminded of Joe Goldberg's description of Trane's quartet early-ish on as a montuno where the son never comes, which is not at all a bad "impression", but not really informed as to waht was really going on musically.

I mean, you can hear a lot of Warne in Wayne w/Miles, so I've no doubt that those guys were familiar with the whole Tristano thing, but that was just one of many different things going on in that band at that time. It was a very volatile and fertile collection of minds and spirits, and pretty much anything went sooner or later from what I can hear. If anything was their "prime influence", I'd think it would be being who they were where and when they were.

Yeah, Jamal is much more important as a "conceptualist" than as a "player", although in his case I don't knw if you' want to draw that line.

Early Herbie was essentially a combination of Bill Evans (so get your Tristano there), Wynton Kelly, Debussy, and Herbie(sic). Oh yeah - tow other influences that Herbie has copped to - Robert Farnon & Nelson Riddle. For real.

If nothing else, it was a hit record, and all that follows from that. And fwiw, I don't know that anybody's ever claimed that it "cataclysmically" changed the music, all jazz musicians, and the music they played. Nobody that I'd take seriously, anyway.

Yawn.

Jacqui McShee Jay McShann Les McCann

Now that's a big bad john!

I'm being called upon to cover Barbieri's version of "Europa" this weekend, one of those things that I've long heard but never really gotten inside of, and...it's really a masterful performance. Melodic, flowing, subtly shaped contours in the line, superb control of the instrument, the whole thing has a flow to it that is elegantly liquid. Rereading this thread, somebody said that improvising is overrated. Well, I don't know about that, but I do think that true lyricism, the ability to sing a melody through an instrument & endow it with a body and a shape all its own, is highly underrated. I'll take Barbieri playing something like this like this, even in a "commercial" setting, over a collection of well-studied "licks" players far more often than not...