DrJ

That's it...we're no longer on speaking terms!

Proud to say I've never purchased a Proper set, and have only two or three Blue Moon/Fresh Sound CDs (either stuff so obscure there's NO WAY it's gonna be on CD any other way, or purchased before I realized their shadiness). I guess I can see some of the viewpoints supporting purchasing their stuff, but the far more compelling argument is in favor of boycotting this approach in my view.

Digging this up because I finally caught up with LAND OF GIANTS and it's a fabulous CD, the best souvenier I can think of for those of us not lucky enough to see the shows these two did together. Interesting that as people are mentioning above, Hutch sounds much more on top of his game here than Tyner, who sounds unusually subdued. Hope his health is OK. Hutcherson is flat out superb on the opener "Serra Do Mar," and on the ballad "December" which joins "For Heaven's Sake" from his prior duo album with Tyner MANHATTAN MOODS as an all-time classic. Only real musical quibble is that I'm not big on the drummer Eric Harland, my first exposure to him. He's so-so mostly, but there are times where he just doesn't seem to have a clue about what to do on some of the tunes. There's a pretty embarrassingly wooly take on "If I Were a Bell" - where he tries lamely to do a Philly Joe homage with that stick on rim thing but it's totally wrong for the mood, and you can almost hear Hutcherson - who's on fire - looking around at the rhythm section going "Come on guys, look sharp, keep up!" And then there's a totally out of place back-beat segment he inserts into one of the tunes ("Steppin'" I think). Boo. Someone mentioned a noise in the background...well, it's just Charnett Moffett's bass, the close mike picks up a lot of the noise of his fingers hitting the strings, or the strings vibrating and clicking on the tailpiece or something. But that's definitely the source. I don't find it too distracting, but it does seem a little odd given the otherwise phenomenal recording quality on this...I went for the SACD hybrid and the SACD layer is unreal. This unwanted noise is probably one of the "cons" of ultra-high resolution recordings, although I have to believe there would have been a way to minimize this with mic'ing techniques.

Wow, I had missed the info on his poor health before. Very sad. My thoughts go out to Elvin, he looks so gaunt and unlike the hale and hearty person I'm used to seeing in photos. I have no friggin' idea what Mr. Symphony is talking about - anachronistic drummer? Elvin was and is a giant. One of the handful of drummers that non-drummers can hear and identify INSTANTLY. There have been discussions on him in the past where several of us have talked about what a master he is with brushes, which is not something most people talk about much with Elvin but everyone should check out. Listen to some of the stuff he does on Andrew Hill's JUDGEMENT album for example. Any non-musicians looking for a way in to his music would do well to read the liners for the JJ Johnson Mosaic box, which have some nice things (including Bobby Jaspar's comments about his take on Elvin's approach, which hit the nail on the head).

Well I'm gonna take this question in the spirit I think it was intended, goin' way back to early childhood. There was a bunch but the Doobies' "Black Water" sticks in my head...they were huge in the San Jose area where I grew up, with many of the band having Bay Area roots. I must have played that single 8 million times.

Whoah...I guess this is a great example of "to each their own." SECOND GENESIS is fine album pushing gently at the boundaries of hard bop convention, but it's no SORCERER - the sound of music changing worlds!

Hee hee hee hee....

Damn, gonna be a hard summer on my wallet. There's some really great titles in that list... BLACK FIRE IN 'N' OUT (always my fave of Henderson's BNs for some reason) and INNER URGE (nearly as great) DOIN' ALRIGHT (ditto for Dex) DESINATION...OUT! and ACTION and (Blakey press roll please...) FREE FOR ALL, by the might, mighty Fuller/Shorter/Hubbard/Walton/Workman incarnation of the Messengers. YESSS! These 7 titles would be on my short list of Blue Note's greatest for sure.

Sigh...this seems typical, by far the most controversy out there regarding CD players than any other component. I will listen and trust my ears.

I still have an Onkyo 6 disk changer myself and like it just fine for what it is - undeniably nice to be able to flip through a variety of discs without getting my butt out of the chair, even though it's not an "audiophile" player. It has one of the most solid drawer mechanisms I've ever seen on a CD player - funny that the person below has had problems with it, I had an older 6-disk Onkyo that I traded in because it didn't have a digital out, and it never once locked up, and I've had the new one for several years and it also has never faltered. Rock solid. Don't know about recent Onkyo receivers, my first decent home theater receiver was an Onkyo though (a good 10 yrs ago now - it had only ProLogic, to give you an idea!). I liked that for what it was too. I think for mass-produced, reasonably priced stuff Onkyo is darn good - maybe not the truest sound reproduction but appealing, generally quite warmly colored which turns some people off but I don't mind it. For a little truer sound (at least at more of the $1000 range, not sure about $500 range but probably) I would suggest you give Denon a close look. I have the AVR 3300 now in our home theater set up; they have newer 5.1 receivers that are WAY cheaper than the $1000 I paid for this a few years ago (now everyone wants 6.1 and 7.1 for some reason). Very fine stuff is Denon - I find the sound less colored but crystal clear and for a company that focuses on home theater they definitely incorporate features with music buffs in mind too - like my AVR 3300 had external ins for 6 channel audio (like SACD) well before it hit mainstream, plus an analog bypass to allow you to use a turntable without the signal getting sent through the D/A converters. So if I had to recommend a single brand I'd say "look close at," it would be Denon. In scanning their stuff, the AVR 3803 lists for a bit more than you're looking to pay ($799) but it looks like a great unit. I like Denon. Harmon Kardon also is nice, again more like Onkyo though in that there is a definite coloration of the sound to make it "warmer." I just helped my wife's mom upgrade her system, she's on a tight budget and the AVR 130 was what we went for (paid about $300, lists for $399). It's got a lower power rating per channel than competitors but don't let that put you off, Harmon Kardon is noted for having "true" ratings, rather than the usual inflated ones. You'll not have any power problems is my guess (in fact the whole watts per channel thing is really overrated, particularly at lower end audio - any of these units, you'll be fine). It's kind of cool looking too with a blue backlit volume knob that is striking. This is all solid state - Lon has a nice suggestion for tube route.

Yes, you just need a digital out...that's pretty standard now. I'm gonna try the home demo route out for sure.

Thanks for your input folks! For all the reasons indicated, I'm leaning pretty strongly toward a good all in one CD player for all these reasons, probably the Meridian G08 (will check out the Linn Ikemi and comparably priced machines though for sure). What about the squeak coming from his lil' bitty sock cymbal foot pedal mechanism?

Well, I think the Pioneer DV45A is going to have to do me for now as universal player. I do plan on upgrading that eventually, but I am wanting to get as much mileage as possible out of regular CD too. My initial plan was to go for a Teac Esoteric DV-50 universal player, but hearing the amazing things both the AudioNote DAC and Meridian G08 did with regular CD made me think it's probably not necessary for now (although the Teac is supposed to be darn good with regular CD too) - I only have a handful of titles in SACD and DVD-A right now after all and can add a better quality universal player later. I want to maximize regular CD's potential. I'll check out the Linn Ikemi. The Unidisk is way out of my price range for a front end right now...the Teac Esoteric is a little above but $10,000+ for a CD player, no matter how good, is not going to be feasible right now! I share your concerns about the hassles of multiple boxes...leaning more and more towards a good all-in-one like the Meridian G08 or Linn Ikemi.

In my "help wanted" thread for getting ideas and input on setting up my listening room, I've been getting great guidance from our friend wolff in the area of tube amps and well-suited speakers. Also a bunch of excellent suggestions from others too. However, wolff freely admits he's a vinyl guy, so not able to give as much help with front ends for CD, which will be by far my main format for listening. Nobody else seems to be chiming in now about CD players, so I'm thinking people have stopped looking there and that I better post this question here. Yesterday I heard an amazing Audio Note set up - Meishu integrated amp (two of their mono triodes bundled with a preamp), Zingali speakers. For CD playback, the listening room had a transport-only rig paired with the Audio Note 2.1 DAC which sounded sweet, sweet, sweet...most vinyl-like CD sound I've ever heard. I have to say I left a convert. I had not been thinking about this external DAC approach...the owner (he specializes in tube stuff, been in Sacto area for 35+ years and very knowledgeable and low key) recommended strongly that, rather than going out and buying an expensive all in one CD player (transport plus high end DAC), I just stick with my Pioneer Elite DV45A player for use as a transport and connect the Audio Note DAC (via digital out) to bypass the in-player converters and upgrade sound capability that way. So a couple questions: 1. What do people think about the external DAC approach? Pros/cons? Any guidance? 2. Audio Note DACs eschew the up/oversampling approach with a "1x" philosophy. It sounded great, but I wonder if people have compared a good upsampling player (e.g. Meridian G08) with this type of DAC head to head (I wasn't able to do that in the store ). Would I be better off spending 3000+ on a new upsampling player like the Meridian, or investing it all in the Audio Note DAC for use with my current transport? I like a smooth, nonfatiguing sound but also enjoy hearing a lot of sonic detail and I wonder if using the AN DAC would sacrifice some detail for smoothness?

I had read similar concerns about the B&Ws, with many saying basically they are a great speaker with a powerful solid state amp to drive them but sound less good or even bad with other setups. Probably will avoid that route if I go with the tube amp approach as I'm leaning toward now. Re: the Zingalis, I did listen to the Overture 3, which is one step down from the 4 ($6100/pr). The advantage for the 4 was in bass reproduction, much fuller. The 3's were lighter in that regard, although sounded fantastic in midrange and high end and certainly no slouches. Less efficient also than the 4s. Deetes felt initially the 3s might be a good fit with my price range and tastes, but also said the 4s are by far the most popular match with the Audio Note Meishu. It was a heavenly combo. I guess that brings up another question: the listening room as I mentioned will be fairly small, 12x14 range, with floating wood floor using area rug(s). Would the 4's be TOO MUCH for that small a room, particularly in terms of potential for boominess in the bass end? If that is an issue then the 3's were certainly excellent and might even be a better fit with the room (plus they have a smaller footprint, also nice in a small space).

Congratulations! I think my avatar indicates how I feel about fatherhood - our little guy is 9 months old now, and it's been the greatest 9 months of my life without question. Little Zora is beautiful, and she'll make your lives more beautiful every single day.

Yeah, they list for $8100/pr - which is way more than I'd initially hoped to pay but honestly I think it would be worth it in the long run. Specs-wise, they seem to outdo the comparably priced B&W Nautilus 802s. However, I can't find much if any comment on the Zingalis even on Audiogon. To my ears they sounded awesome - definitely not a "reach out and grab you" sound, very refined and unobtrusive. Would be nice to hear from other owners re: reliability, sound characteristics over time, etc. What do you think about B&W Nautilus 802s (comparably priced to the Zingalis) with tube gear, wolff? The guy showing me those with the Meridians seemed to feel that while they are efficient they do best when driven with a higher output amp.

My thoughts exactly on the amp sans phono wolff - still thinking about that. Here's the link to the speaker manufacturer: www.zingali.it Web site is well-done.

Well, I finally got to listen to good tube gear today and I am sold, sold, sold. No comparison and not even close. Most natural sounding stuff I've ever heard. Anyone in the Sacramento area might want to check out Deetes Sound Room, run by Deetes Anderson, a heck of a nice and knowledgeable guy. Anyway, I'm pretty much sold on the following combination, which fits my price range and taste in sound: 1. Audio Note Meishu integrated tube amp (the Signature upgraded model with phono out). Simply gorgeous in its simplicity and sound, and right for me (the mono blocks sounded a smidge better but out of my range for now and less practical for us for a variety of reasons) 2. Zingali Overture 4 speakers - perfect match for this low watt tube amp and absolutely beautiful carved wood, as artistic in looks as in sound. Very efficient. I cannot believe how amazing this combo sounds Now I'm just needing help with the front end...Deetes is in the "high quality DAC would be the way to go" camp, and Audio Note has a couple dandies that eschew the upsampling trend in most of the industry. Sounded phenomenal with the above amp and speakers - but I'm wondering what people think about this issue. At about $3000 for the DAC I'm eyeing, would I get that much more mileage out of my Pioneer DV45A (which has pretty good DACs to begin with but which I'd connect to the DAC via a digital out) or would I be better off spending that kind of money on a whole new upsampling CD player (e.g. the Meridian G08)? Or other options?

This thread is a good example of why I love this board. Honestly I have never seen myself as a bulletin board type of guy because so many of them are just plain obnoxious and seem to attract a very "dittohead" type of crowd, all the same. But there really seems to be some diversity here, and folks are by and large really cool - not the least because they are honest but at the same time generally freely able to admit when they step over the line and (gasp!) even sometimes APOLOGIZE! Done it many times myself, and probably many more in the future. So welcome back Geoff, I think you'll enjoy it here.

There was no info on drummer or bassist for the Hutch/McLean/Moncur date, unfortunately.

Morganized, I'm not sure how your post relates to the issue at hand - you won't be able to even hope to hear any of the possible advantages of SACD without actually hearing the SACD layer. It isn't just "slowing down" the regular CD layer, it's a whole other technology that allows a much higher resolution signal with expanded dynamic range. Some times I will agree that on certain sessions I don't hear a dramatic improvement, but for most A/B'd, there is a sizeable difference from regular CD layer. I'll be interested to see if I still feel this way once I pick up a higher end standard CD player that upsamples etc - but I suspect there will still be a difference, because no matter how much you upsample you're still limited ultimately by the resolution of the source signal. So that brings me to the BLUE TRAIN SACD which I finally was able to pick up. So far, I'm pretty impressed and not sure what all the flap was about. It sounds pretty outstanding to me...definitely some improvements in the sonic detail over both the ULTIMATE CD and the CD layer on this disc (which is quite good), it's much more like the sound of a real trombone for example when Curtis Fuller plays, an instrument that is particularly hard to capture well on recordings unless they're really good ones. As I've observed for most SACDs, the sound is just, well, "smoother" or rounder and more vinyl-like - there none of the harshness you get even with some very well done CD remasterings, no doubt a result of the DSD technology. But with the added bonus of the incredible detail you get with digital and which I find lacking in even very high end vinyl. Perhaps there were some "lemon" versions that got out early, but this copy sure sounds great and I'm thrilled to have it, particularly at $14 something - a bargain given you can enjoy it in the listening room or on the road in the car player.

I'm sure SOMEONE has to have posted on this somewhere but couldn't find a thread quickly so... Anyone see in Downbeat the listing of these two live reunions coming up at Iridium? May 25-30: Jackie McLean, Grachan Moncur, and Bobby Hutcherson, joining up for the first time since the mid-60's. July 13-18: the John Handy Quintet (you know, the one that recorded LIVE IN MONTEREY), with Michael White, Jerry Hahn, Don Thompson, and Terry Clarke. HOLY SHIT! And we're not going to NYC this Spring or Summer 'cause it's too hard to travel with the little guy right now. Anyone planning to go to these? I hope some record label is smart enough to capture these for posterity, and if not - pocket recorders, people, what do you think about DAT?

BTW that last song reference got me thinking about all those great 80s R&B dance club things - "Let it Whip" by the Dazz Band, for example. That's a whole other thing, love hearing those tunes on the car radio. Not so much a dance club tune but Marvin's "Sexual Healing" is still a favorite, maybe not up with the stuff from his prime but still remarkably powerful pop music.

Well coming from someone who was a huge Game Theory, The Fall, Jam, Throwing Muses, etc fan - LOSE THE ATTITUDE ABOUT 80'S POP, you elitists! Jeez, lighten up, really. It wasn't that bad an era, and in fact it was a really good singles, "one hit wonder" era. There's hundreds of good examples - one I just remembered off the top of my head was "Send Me an Angel," by the Aussie band Real Life - good tune, one hit, over and out! Take 5 seconds to listen to pop radio NOW and you'll begin to appreciate just how many decent singles made it to the airwaves in the 80's. For that matter, listen to singles from ANY era...you simply get a skewed view of stuff from the 50's and 60's because they play the same 20 or 30 classic singles over and over again, but there were hundreds and hundreds of drecky things that have justly faded into obscurity. Many of us here are just too young to have ever heard them, but when you do, you'll realize pop has always been a hit and mostly miss proposition. But man, when people are so "embarrassed" to admit they like humming along with a stupid pop song in the car that they can't muster the guts to list actual popular songs (rather than the usual "legit" critic's choice bands - and hey, I loved 'em too) and write off an entire decade of music wholesale, it's a sure sign they either care WAY too much about what other people think, or need a good long vacation, or both. So throw on your skinny tie and go call your travel agent, and remember - NO PARKING ON THE DANCE FLOOR!