DrJ

Definitely demo the Dolphy SACD vs CD side by side before "upgrading" if you can...I find the Dolphy Prestige recordings (studio ones at least) to be VERY excellent in terms of the original recordings...I have the Prestige CD box set and they sound great...my suspicion is that any upgrade in sound would be relatively minor unless you have a pretty excellent listening system.

Happy birthday!!!

Please post your impressions if you do take the plunge, undergroundagent - this sounds interesting.

I'm glad Farlow got mentioned, he's one of my top 3 modern jazz guys on guitar, with Grant Green and Jim Hall. Funny how DIFFERENT from each other these guys are, yet I love 'em all so much. No slight meant to all the other fantastic jazz guitarists, especially Wes Montgomery and Kenny Burrell who are real close to these for me, but something about the styles of these "big 3" just slays me. Farlow is a perfect example of an exception to one rule for me - as Jim mentioned so eloquently earlier, he plays such long lines that they are really NOT horn like, although he does borrow some horn phrasing. But overall, his lines are more "guitaristic" than many other jazz guitarists. Normally I prefer the latter school, but Farlow is just so musical in his own way that it's irrelevant. I will say, though, that for me Farlow is kind of the "Tatum of the guitar," meaning that if I'm really serious about listening then I have to put all distractions aside and FOCUS on what he's doing and take it in relatively small doses...in other words, although it's certainly gorgeous music, it isn't good background music for me, it just whizzes by that way, whereas someone like Grant Green I can enjoy in either type of listening (and in fact it's probably better to not focus too much on things like trying to deconstruct his approach to harmony, as he's not nearly as adventurous and tends to fall back on licks, admittedly hip and smart as they are). Hall is a whole other ballgame - I seldom hear ANY "licks-based" playing in his mature work, not that it's not there I'm sure but he's a pro at hiding it! Just so urbane, yet quietly adventurous, and more so as he ages. And after being fortunate enough to see him live (trio at the Vanguard) I'm even more impressed than before with the fantastic tone he gets...the dynamics and subtleties are literally endless. A master.

Sal - no major slur meant on this recording, it is highly recommended I agree. Re: Harland, I'm sure he's phenomenally talented, but to me he sounds a little wrong, or perhaps under-prepared, for some of these tunes (especially what he does to "If I Were a Bell"). He does sound really great on the more modal, "modern" stuff of McCoy's, so I suspect you're right, in the younger company you list he's probably a perfect fit. Partly might be personal taste too - I'm not a big fan of heavy backbeats in jazz, and he does seem to favor them at times (as do many of the younger drummers to my ears - probably the rock era effect), where I'd like to hear a more subtle kind of dancing! I also agree with you, the standard CD layer on this one is so good that it comes really close to the SACD layer even when using a moderate level CD player...I'm upgrading my CD system and as a result probably won't even be using SACD, at least for a while, and on the higher end CD player I suspect the CD layer will actually EXCEED what I've been hearing on the SACD. It is amazingly well done.

OK, the listening room is beginning to take shape! After some very careful comparison listening yesterday, I'm pretty much set on the following: Audio Note Meishu tube amp Zingali Overture 2 speakers (these are the newer version, not the slightly older 2s - and they are even more physically beautiful and sound just as good) Audio Note silver interconnects and speaker cables Audio Note 2.1 DAC (see below!) Audio Note CD Zero transport I have just been floored by the AN/Zingali combination, most vinyl-like, musical, non-fatiguing sound I've ever heard. The Overture 2 is 2/3 of the larger Overture 4, which I'm sure would sound even better but it's too large and $3000 more! Just can't justify that for a small room and when the Overture 2 sounds so fantastic. With the AN DAC, even my Pioneer DV45A (which I brought in and used while demoing) sounded fantastic...we hooked it up first without the DAC and while it was still a great system, the digital harshness and lack of detail and depth were really obvious, immediately, especially on poorer recordings (which I brought because let's face it, a lot of great older jazz was poorly recorded). I found the DAC to be a real important step in a system of this quality...while I'm sure there are good "all in one" players that would sound about as nice, the great thing about the separate DAC and transport is upgrade capacity over time, plus I am now a firm convert to AN's "zero over/upsampling" philosophy after hearing the difference for myself. It flat out don't sound digital! ONE BIG REMAINING QUESTION: Should I go for the AN BALANCED 2.1 DAC or the Signature, which is unbalanced? I've read that balanced is a huge important thing, as well as other opinions that say it's a vastly overrated feature and can actually lead to detriments in sound. Wasn't able to A/B unfortunately, all I heard was the balanced and it sounded phenomenal to me. But if it's not that important, could save me about $600 or so, so figured I'd ask the experts!

Ditto Tom's question. In the absence of that, listen to see if you can tell what's going on with some of the following things: - Pick attack and approach (or do they play sans pick?), because use of a pick or not and then the style of picking they use has a huge influence on sound. I saw a recent Sonny Greenwich solo transcription that pointed out something I hadn't thought about that influences his sound, which is that he uses a lot of "up-picking." Wes Montgomery of course is a classic example of someone who didn't use a pick and had that unconventional thumb style that led to a very beefy sound. - String gauge - some people use telephone cables they're so thick, others lighter gauge, and some mix and match. This definitely can influence the sound. - Axe and amp choice. This is not to say that "Guitar X always sounds like this" or "This amp is always warm" but simply that these things tend to really impact on sound and there are generalizations. Big hollowbodies are going to generally sound very warm, semisolid or solid bodies a little "harder edged" but don't feed back as much. Then there's the whole issue of how the amp is actually deployed - with someone like Joe Pass on the VIRTUOSO album it's almost like he's playing acoustically the amp is so quiet, just there enough to project and thicken the sound a bit. - Use of effects - these can be subtle, like Jim Hall's more recent work, or more obvious, e.g. Bill Frisell. Do they like a disorted or overdriven edge; a little chorus or delay? There's more I'm sure. These are more of the technical aspects of a guitarist's sound...but of course the more musical aspects are of greater importance. Do they tend to use more single notes than chords? Are the lines "horn like" (e.g. not just single notes, but incorporating the phrasing and other elements - e.g. pauses for "breaths" - horn players employ? Octaves? What about the harmonies themselves - are they working at the outer reaches of the harmony a la Eric Dolphy, more mainstream? What do they do with rhythm - cross bar lines, or pretty much work within the bars? It's easier for guitar players than horn players to play very long, fast lines because they don't have to breathe, but other than for effect occasionally this can also sound very wearisome, "running scales" and that may be what you're reacting to wesbed in terms of your ear being more attuned to sax, trumpet, etc. The best guitarists, in my view, realize this and mix it up more, giving the lines room to breathe and sink in. Lots more others will add I'm sure. But these are things it may be good to listen for and think about. If you do I think some of the "what makes that sound so unique" questions will begin to have their answers revealed. Where's Jim R when we need him!?

That's it...we're no longer on speaking terms!

Proud to say I've never purchased a Proper set, and have only two or three Blue Moon/Fresh Sound CDs (either stuff so obscure there's NO WAY it's gonna be on CD any other way, or purchased before I realized their shadiness). I guess I can see some of the viewpoints supporting purchasing their stuff, but the far more compelling argument is in favor of boycotting this approach in my view.

Digging this up because I finally caught up with LAND OF GIANTS and it's a fabulous CD, the best souvenier I can think of for those of us not lucky enough to see the shows these two did together. Interesting that as people are mentioning above, Hutch sounds much more on top of his game here than Tyner, who sounds unusually subdued. Hope his health is OK. Hutcherson is flat out superb on the opener "Serra Do Mar," and on the ballad "December" which joins "For Heaven's Sake" from his prior duo album with Tyner MANHATTAN MOODS as an all-time classic. Only real musical quibble is that I'm not big on the drummer Eric Harland, my first exposure to him. He's so-so mostly, but there are times where he just doesn't seem to have a clue about what to do on some of the tunes. There's a pretty embarrassingly wooly take on "If I Were a Bell" - where he tries lamely to do a Philly Joe homage with that stick on rim thing but it's totally wrong for the mood, and you can almost hear Hutcherson - who's on fire - looking around at the rhythm section going "Come on guys, look sharp, keep up!" And then there's a totally out of place back-beat segment he inserts into one of the tunes ("Steppin'" I think). Boo. Someone mentioned a noise in the background...well, it's just Charnett Moffett's bass, the close mike picks up a lot of the noise of his fingers hitting the strings, or the strings vibrating and clicking on the tailpiece or something. But that's definitely the source. I don't find it too distracting, but it does seem a little odd given the otherwise phenomenal recording quality on this...I went for the SACD hybrid and the SACD layer is unreal. This unwanted noise is probably one of the "cons" of ultra-high resolution recordings, although I have to believe there would have been a way to minimize this with mic'ing techniques.

Wow, I had missed the info on his poor health before. Very sad. My thoughts go out to Elvin, he looks so gaunt and unlike the hale and hearty person I'm used to seeing in photos. I have no friggin' idea what Mr. Symphony is talking about - anachronistic drummer? Elvin was and is a giant. One of the handful of drummers that non-drummers can hear and identify INSTANTLY. There have been discussions on him in the past where several of us have talked about what a master he is with brushes, which is not something most people talk about much with Elvin but everyone should check out. Listen to some of the stuff he does on Andrew Hill's JUDGEMENT album for example. Any non-musicians looking for a way in to his music would do well to read the liners for the JJ Johnson Mosaic box, which have some nice things (including Bobby Jaspar's comments about his take on Elvin's approach, which hit the nail on the head).

Well I'm gonna take this question in the spirit I think it was intended, goin' way back to early childhood. There was a bunch but the Doobies' "Black Water" sticks in my head...they were huge in the San Jose area where I grew up, with many of the band having Bay Area roots. I must have played that single 8 million times.

Whoah...I guess this is a great example of "to each their own." SECOND GENESIS is fine album pushing gently at the boundaries of hard bop convention, but it's no SORCERER - the sound of music changing worlds!

Hee hee hee hee....

Damn, gonna be a hard summer on my wallet. There's some really great titles in that list... BLACK FIRE IN 'N' OUT (always my fave of Henderson's BNs for some reason) and INNER URGE (nearly as great) DOIN' ALRIGHT (ditto for Dex) DESINATION...OUT! and ACTION and (Blakey press roll please...) FREE FOR ALL, by the might, mighty Fuller/Shorter/Hubbard/Walton/Workman incarnation of the Messengers. YESSS! These 7 titles would be on my short list of Blue Note's greatest for sure.

Sigh...this seems typical, by far the most controversy out there regarding CD players than any other component. I will listen and trust my ears.

I still have an Onkyo 6 disk changer myself and like it just fine for what it is - undeniably nice to be able to flip through a variety of discs without getting my butt out of the chair, even though it's not an "audiophile" player. It has one of the most solid drawer mechanisms I've ever seen on a CD player - funny that the person below has had problems with it, I had an older 6-disk Onkyo that I traded in because it didn't have a digital out, and it never once locked up, and I've had the new one for several years and it also has never faltered. Rock solid. Don't know about recent Onkyo receivers, my first decent home theater receiver was an Onkyo though (a good 10 yrs ago now - it had only ProLogic, to give you an idea!). I liked that for what it was too. I think for mass-produced, reasonably priced stuff Onkyo is darn good - maybe not the truest sound reproduction but appealing, generally quite warmly colored which turns some people off but I don't mind it. For a little truer sound (at least at more of the $1000 range, not sure about $500 range but probably) I would suggest you give Denon a close look. I have the AVR 3300 now in our home theater set up; they have newer 5.1 receivers that are WAY cheaper than the $1000 I paid for this a few years ago (now everyone wants 6.1 and 7.1 for some reason). Very fine stuff is Denon - I find the sound less colored but crystal clear and for a company that focuses on home theater they definitely incorporate features with music buffs in mind too - like my AVR 3300 had external ins for 6 channel audio (like SACD) well before it hit mainstream, plus an analog bypass to allow you to use a turntable without the signal getting sent through the D/A converters. So if I had to recommend a single brand I'd say "look close at," it would be Denon. In scanning their stuff, the AVR 3803 lists for a bit more than you're looking to pay ($799) but it looks like a great unit. I like Denon. Harmon Kardon also is nice, again more like Onkyo though in that there is a definite coloration of the sound to make it "warmer." I just helped my wife's mom upgrade her system, she's on a tight budget and the AVR 130 was what we went for (paid about $300, lists for $399). It's got a lower power rating per channel than competitors but don't let that put you off, Harmon Kardon is noted for having "true" ratings, rather than the usual inflated ones. You'll not have any power problems is my guess (in fact the whole watts per channel thing is really overrated, particularly at lower end audio - any of these units, you'll be fine). It's kind of cool looking too with a blue backlit volume knob that is striking. This is all solid state - Lon has a nice suggestion for tube route.

Yes, you just need a digital out...that's pretty standard now. I'm gonna try the home demo route out for sure.

Thanks for your input folks! For all the reasons indicated, I'm leaning pretty strongly toward a good all in one CD player for all these reasons, probably the Meridian G08 (will check out the Linn Ikemi and comparably priced machines though for sure). What about the squeak coming from his lil' bitty sock cymbal foot pedal mechanism?

Well, I think the Pioneer DV45A is going to have to do me for now as universal player. I do plan on upgrading that eventually, but I am wanting to get as much mileage as possible out of regular CD too. My initial plan was to go for a Teac Esoteric DV-50 universal player, but hearing the amazing things both the AudioNote DAC and Meridian G08 did with regular CD made me think it's probably not necessary for now (although the Teac is supposed to be darn good with regular CD too) - I only have a handful of titles in SACD and DVD-A right now after all and can add a better quality universal player later. I want to maximize regular CD's potential. I'll check out the Linn Ikemi. The Unidisk is way out of my price range for a front end right now...the Teac Esoteric is a little above but $10,000+ for a CD player, no matter how good, is not going to be feasible right now! I share your concerns about the hassles of multiple boxes...leaning more and more towards a good all-in-one like the Meridian G08 or Linn Ikemi.

In my "help wanted" thread for getting ideas and input on setting up my listening room, I've been getting great guidance from our friend wolff in the area of tube amps and well-suited speakers. Also a bunch of excellent suggestions from others too. However, wolff freely admits he's a vinyl guy, so not able to give as much help with front ends for CD, which will be by far my main format for listening. Nobody else seems to be chiming in now about CD players, so I'm thinking people have stopped looking there and that I better post this question here. Yesterday I heard an amazing Audio Note set up - Meishu integrated amp (two of their mono triodes bundled with a preamp), Zingali speakers. For CD playback, the listening room had a transport-only rig paired with the Audio Note 2.1 DAC which sounded sweet, sweet, sweet...most vinyl-like CD sound I've ever heard. I have to say I left a convert. I had not been thinking about this external DAC approach...the owner (he specializes in tube stuff, been in Sacto area for 35+ years and very knowledgeable and low key) recommended strongly that, rather than going out and buying an expensive all in one CD player (transport plus high end DAC), I just stick with my Pioneer Elite DV45A player for use as a transport and connect the Audio Note DAC (via digital out) to bypass the in-player converters and upgrade sound capability that way. So a couple questions: 1. What do people think about the external DAC approach? Pros/cons? Any guidance? 2. Audio Note DACs eschew the up/oversampling approach with a "1x" philosophy. It sounded great, but I wonder if people have compared a good upsampling player (e.g. Meridian G08) with this type of DAC head to head (I wasn't able to do that in the store ). Would I be better off spending 3000+ on a new upsampling player like the Meridian, or investing it all in the Audio Note DAC for use with my current transport? I like a smooth, nonfatiguing sound but also enjoy hearing a lot of sonic detail and I wonder if using the AN DAC would sacrifice some detail for smoothness?

I had read similar concerns about the B&Ws, with many saying basically they are a great speaker with a powerful solid state amp to drive them but sound less good or even bad with other setups. Probably will avoid that route if I go with the tube amp approach as I'm leaning toward now. Re: the Zingalis, I did listen to the Overture 3, which is one step down from the 4 ($6100/pr). The advantage for the 4 was in bass reproduction, much fuller. The 3's were lighter in that regard, although sounded fantastic in midrange and high end and certainly no slouches. Less efficient also than the 4s. Deetes felt initially the 3s might be a good fit with my price range and tastes, but also said the 4s are by far the most popular match with the Audio Note Meishu. It was a heavenly combo. I guess that brings up another question: the listening room as I mentioned will be fairly small, 12x14 range, with floating wood floor using area rug(s). Would the 4's be TOO MUCH for that small a room, particularly in terms of potential for boominess in the bass end? If that is an issue then the 3's were certainly excellent and might even be a better fit with the room (plus they have a smaller footprint, also nice in a small space).

Congratulations! I think my avatar indicates how I feel about fatherhood - our little guy is 9 months old now, and it's been the greatest 9 months of my life without question. Little Zora is beautiful, and she'll make your lives more beautiful every single day.

Yeah, they list for $8100/pr - which is way more than I'd initially hoped to pay but honestly I think it would be worth it in the long run. Specs-wise, they seem to outdo the comparably priced B&W Nautilus 802s. However, I can't find much if any comment on the Zingalis even on Audiogon. To my ears they sounded awesome - definitely not a "reach out and grab you" sound, very refined and unobtrusive. Would be nice to hear from other owners re: reliability, sound characteristics over time, etc. What do you think about B&W Nautilus 802s (comparably priced to the Zingalis) with tube gear, wolff? The guy showing me those with the Meridians seemed to feel that while they are efficient they do best when driven with a higher output amp.

My thoughts exactly on the amp sans phono wolff - still thinking about that. Here's the link to the speaker manufacturer: www.zingali.it Web site is well-done.