DrJ

This is great news, truly great music!

Scott: don't want to derail your thread right at the start, but would you be willing to pause and give me your opinion about the music in the box? I have basically none of it, although I've heard some. I would imagine it's pretty wonderful overall, but kinda costly. Help me pry my wallet open by giving me some tantalizing comments, if you feel like it!

Guess I'm just cynical, but offering money cheapens the deal for me. Smacks of a publicity ploy (and on that end, it's working). As far as improving racial relations within a community, it's simply not going to be effective. The people who go are going to be people who are already "converts" or close to it - people who are already committed to eliminating the racial divide. As AfricaBrass appropriately points out, those people don't NEED money. A simple invitation would have done. By contrast, the folks that really need to be reached aren't going to go, whether you give them $5 or $500. You can't "change" people until they are ready to change themselves.

Count Basie - CHAIRMAN OF THE BOARD (Roulette) Joe Henderson - LUSH LIFE (Verve) Duke Ellington - RCA CENTENNIAL BOX (RCA), discs 4 and 8 Benny Goodman - CARNEGIE HALL CONCERT (Columbia/Legacy)

Isn't Nock originally from New Zealand? It seems he's moved around a lot - playing, for example, with Lateef during his tenure at Impulse! I wouldn't have automatically identified him with SF, but then again I think he also recorded with John Handy...speaking of which, DON'T overlook Handy's classic recordings for Columbia (and a little before that, Roulette) in exploring the history of jazz in the SF Bay Area.

The intention seems earnest and good here, but honestly this just sounds plain silly, another great example of why people from other parts of the world look at the U.S. these days and just shake their heads. Any white person who goes to a "black" (whatever that means) church because they're being paid (rather than just because they're interested) is probably not committed enough to de-polarizing race relations to make the effort anything more than...well, a light news piece.

That's the box I saw, yes. It didn't look legit to me, either.

I won't talk about a single solo, but for me the king of the short solo was Harry "Sweets" Edison.

I posted a more detailed reply in a Joe Henderson thread recently, but the WILDFLOWERS COMPLETE NY LOFT SESSIONS 3 CD box on Knit Classics, from I believe 1976, captures the richness of experimentation of that era - sadly mostly undocumented, particularly by the major labels - in stunning form. Now for some personal 70's faves that should be reissued hastily: Joanne Brackeen - ANCIENT DYNASTY (Tappan Zee): Eddie Gomez, Joe Henderson, Steve Gadd - WAY overdue for reissue (Koch, listening?) Arthur Blythe's Columbia records, especially LENOX AVENUE BREAKDOWN, ILLUSIONS, and IN THE TRADITION (the last hasn't been out on CD) Woody Shaw - STEPPING STONES Bill Watrous - MANHATTAN WILDLIFE REFUGE and TIGER OF SAN PEDRO Hmm...lots of Columbia stuff here, maybe they need to GET A CLUE! The Akiyoshi/Tabackin big band RCA stuff is prime material also - need a comprehensive reissue (box!) with any unissued stuff!!! There are many, many more. A very unjustly overlooked decade for jazz, ripe for a revisit.

Or that obnoxious synth slap bass music...

I been comin' up with some dream track lists myself...rest assured that I will take this bull by the horns and organize something solid in the next week or so. For now, I like Jim R's idea of seeing who else chimes in and what other ideas might come up - who knows, someone may have an even better twist or easier way to do things. Regardless, by next weekend, we'll take what we have and go with it. Meantime, please keep the replies coming!

10 CD box from Germany, with 200 tunes...but that's all the info I can find. Anyone have or know about this that can comment on sound quality, what is represented, etc?

Just saw this title recently and I'm intrigued - from the Ocium label (Spain). Is this a legit operation (is it affiliated with Fresh Sound, which would turn me away)? How is the music? What sessions are represented?

I actually didn't think you misinterpreted my intentions, Lon. I'm probably not being very clear in my posts (been up since 4 AM) - what I meant above was that your first post just triggered something in me to want to make my intentions about the idea as clear as possible for anyone reading my post, particularly my strong conviction that it should not become a competition. That was it!

Cool, Matthew, you are so right that everyone's response to music is intensely personal. Hopefully my post didn't come off as "disagreeing" with you, since your response is perfectly valid, rather just wanted to say I respond a lot differently! B)

Wise points, Dan. The more I think about those things, CD-R's sound like a better approach... Lon - sorry to hear you're not interested, I was looking forward to your being part of the fun! But I do understand also. Your post did prompt me to want to clarify my thinking on this for others: I am hoping this would NOT turn into a competition of any kind to see who can get x % right - I personally think that's good for a laugh on occasion, but not my main intent here. That's why my preference would NOT be to have voting type of posts, I mentioned it as an option some might enjoy but I would rather just see open-ended discussion. My personal take is that when the selections are carefully chosen, blindfold tests can trigger listening in a different way and hearing things one might not have appreciated in usual listening. Connections and developments across eras and musicians in particular can emerge. Plus it is a healthy opportunity, in my view, to have one's dearly held preconceptions tested and sometimes broken down...blindfold tests can of course be very humbling (they OFTEN are for me) and as such spur me to question things like some assumptions that I might make about a particular artist or form of jazz. I might find myself really digging something and then, lo and behold, it turns out the artist is someone that I've never given a fair shake in the past (I certainly try not to be biased or close-minded, but let's face it, we all do it at times - so I say this from personal experience). Anyway, none of this is meant to "convince" you personally of the merit of blindfold testing, Lon - I totally understand and know many people dislike them. Just wanted to make sure my intentions were clear, and to put in a plug up front for this to NOT degenerate into a kind of "I got more of them right than you did" contest!

I don't think this one's NPR-worthy, Jim - 'cause we're much closer together from the start! B) OK, I think I understand your point a little better now, but I would only point out that as a seasoned listener (not only to the Plugged Nickel but to music in general) AND a musician, your vantage point is going to be dramatically different than that of someone who's trying to find a way "in" to these recordings. As you say yourself, you have "firsthand knowledge of how an interactional improvisational band operates," while I'm pretty certain the gentleman who posted the original question doesn't - thus, his original question, which is what I had firmly in mind when I posted. I am a hack amateur musician but dedicated listener; I can only speak from personal experience, which was that I did what I'm advising when I first began listening to the Plugged Nickel stuff, then broadened my vistas so that now I do in fact "listen holistically" and you're clearly right, you get a lot more from the experience by doing so. But sometimes you need to start with "baby steps" - I couldn't absorb it all up front, and focusing on the central triumvirate helped my listening brain get oriented. So I personally DON'T think most people coming from that place are going to be able to do what you're asking them to do right up front. Sure, SOME might, but I suspect (and could be wrong) that most won't be able to do it. That's where my advice came (and comes) from. I definitely realize that others, wired differently, may find other ways in even if they are not trained musicians. If we still disagree at that point, no problem, let's shall - and of course he'll end up doing whatever he does, so all this "sage advice" is probably moot anyway!

Glad to hear it may not be an insurmountable task, Dan! (and no, you didn't miss anything in the editing except some typos and me putting the post inappropriately under the Album of the Week heading...it's WAY early to be up on a Saturday!). I actually agree with you about the timing of starting the thread and posting, I meant something like that but it came across garbled. I'm interested to see if our kind board administrators might be able to help with a technological fix to obviate the need for CD-R's, but if not, I think it can be done....assuming others come on line.

The head angle and pose are strikingly similar, but the resemblance DEFINITELY ends there...

I had a crazy thought at about 4 AM this morning while trying to get our new baby to drift back off to sleep: what if those board members who were interested in participating set up a virtual blindfold test, a la Downbeat? Here's how I envision it working: 1. Like AOW, someone would be selected to lead each test 2. That person would put together a CD-R of tracks by various artists from either a) their own collection, B ) solicitations of other board members to send them tracks, or c) a combo of the above. Probably option (a) would be most popular for logistical reasons. The number would be up to discretion of the organizer, but probably no more than 10 would be best. 3. The tracks would be selected totally at the discretion of the blindfold test leader. However, it would be fun if there were some kind of "theme" that would emerge (not be disclosed up front). For example, maybe a guitarist-focused test one time, or a classic bebop era focus, or organ jazz, or something more imaginitive like trying to identify a lineage in approach (composition, playing, instrument) over all eras of jazz. 4. Once everyone who wanted a copy let the organizer know, the CD-R copies would be made and sent to the participants. 5. Finally, some time (a month?) later, a post would be put up for the blindfold test where the "answers" would be given and the organizer would disclose the theme and any other points they wanted to make, followed by discussion. There would be other possible permutations - for example, having a mutiple choice poll type set up, where people could come and select who they think the artist is on each track from a list of several possibilties, which would narrow it down a bit (let's face it, this could be a TOUGH job!). Pros I see with this idea: lots of fun, and a chance to test our ears and separate the men and women from girls and boys! Cons: labor intensive for the organizer, but if we did say one a quarter, not insurmountable. Main labor would be in making the original CD-R, copying and sending it (no liner notes etc needed) would be relatively easy. Might have to limit the number of participants some for each one if it got too crazy. I'm not "married" to this idea and there might be much smarter ways to do it (e.g. would it be possible to somehow have the Board Administrator post downloadable sound files for the test, working with the blindfold test organizer on getting the right tracks posted, thereby obviating the need for the CD-R hassle?) - but wanted to get it out on the table...what do people think?

I'll be pulling out my vinyl copy of BLACK MARKET to relisten, good idea to prompt a re-evaluation of this one! It always struck me as very much Zawinul's album (not in terms of soloing but for structure and tone) in the old days, but it's honestly been quite a few years since I listened. In the meantime - re: the negative comments about HEAVY WEATHER, to paraphrase the immortal words of Mr. Hand in "Fast Times at Ridgement High" - what are you people, on dope? Sure, more tightly arranged and pop oriented than what had come before, but a MONSTER pop album nonetheless. If only all pop music was this musical and refined and eminently hummable. Some of Zawinul and Shorter's best songwriting for the band, and Jaco is just all over the case (and to be honest, I've never enjoyed his playing much in more open-ended environments, in which he often takes every opportunity to show off - give me the Jaco of HEAVY WEATHER and Joni Mitchell's HEJIRA any day...I'm with you Big Al!).

Eddie Lang/Joe Venuti - 1920's/30's (JSP), disc 2 Sacha Distel - JAZZ GUITARIST (Universal France) Flip Phillips - VERVE/CLEF SESSIONS (Mosaic), disc 3 JAZZ FOR A SUNDAY AFTERNOON (BN) - Corea, Elvin Jones, Richard Davis, Marvin Stamm, Joe Farrell, Garnett Brown from a 1967 Vanguard set Bill Watrous - MANHATTAN WILDLIFE REFUGE (Columbia) Pavement - SLANTED AND ENCHANTED (Matador) Bjork - VESPERTINE (Elektra) Tico All Stars - DESCARGAS: LIVE AT THE VILLAGE GATE VOL. 1 (Tico) And several times through the Bach's Brandenburg Concertos, during baby feeding time

Happy Birthday, Big John! I wasn't lucky enough to have ever seen him play or meet family members, so the closest I get to "knowing" the man is through John Zorn's wonderful liner notes for BOOGALOO - reading those, and hearing Big John's funky B3, always brings a smile to my face.

Can't say I disagree with you on pretty much all points, Jim. This is a true 5 man effort, par excellance. I particularly like your comments about Hancock's accompaniment - and agree on all counts. I also KNEW you would chime in at the word "secondary" being used in my post - honestly, I predicted it. Stickler for semantics, that JSngry! As I pretty clearly tried to point out in my original post, I did not mean to use the word as in "less important" or "superfluous." I simply meant that I continue to firmly hear Shorter/Davis/Williams as the bedrock of MOST (not all) of the Plugged Nickel music - just as the traditional "rhythm section" forms the bedrock of much traditional hard bop. That of course does not make the other musicians "less important" - and in NO WAY does that mean that I am somehow saying I wish this had been the Great Plugged Nickel Trio...of course not! But in honesty I do think the music would actually play QUITE well as just tenor, trumpet and drums - in NO WAY as well as it does with the whole Quintet, of course, and I for one would hate to miss all that great spare Hancock playing and some of Ron Carter's best ever recorded work, but nonetheless it could effectively stand on its own in that form while it would NOT play very well at all if you eliminated any one of those three foundation pillars. There may be examples in the box that are counter to this general rule, but not many. And all THAT relates back to the original question posed - how can one BEGIN to "get in" to the music when listening? So I still say, listen to the pillars first, and then try and broaden your detailed attention to include what Ron and Herbie are doing. That's my guidance and I'm stickin' to it! -_- As for this idea of sadness in hearing the Plugged Nickel box - I DO NOT not hear that. I hear anger maybe, and lots of sheer joy, but no sadness. To me, this music is about discarding jazz labels, categories, and poses and glimpsing the possibility of capturing a form of this great music that is both timeless and constantly on the edge of new frontiers. If you heard the music without knowing who had played it or when, you could easily believe it was recorded yesterday. My conviction is that we'll still be saying that in 50 years, and a lot longer. And yet the history of the music is there at ready reference without one moment ever sounding contrived or like the group is overtly "referencing" the past. The Plugged Nickel music is, then, from the past, present, and future while (thankfully) ultimately belonging to no one.

I totally agree with Scott and Matthew. I would also observe that individual songs don't really matter in the conventional sense - yes, the group uses the melodies and structures as springboards for improv, but they go way beyond those confines. One of the ways I go "in" to this music is to listen to the interplay between Miles and Tony Williams and then what Wayne Shorter lays over and around that. Those are the three pillars that I think this music was built upon. Ron Carter adds some nice harmonic and rhythmic twists and Herbie plays nicely and with truly amazing restraint, but to be honest I often feel those 2 are peripheral to the main drama in this set (NOT superfluous, but secondary). That is definitely NOT the case on contemporary studio recordings by this Quintet, which is interesting. Finally, I know some find the harshness of Miles' trumpet sound on these recordings a bit off-putting. A little on the brittle bright side, some due to his chops and a lot due to the recording. But if you can get past that minor blemish, the recordings are magic.