DrJ

Or that obnoxious synth slap bass music...

I been comin' up with some dream track lists myself...rest assured that I will take this bull by the horns and organize something solid in the next week or so. For now, I like Jim R's idea of seeing who else chimes in and what other ideas might come up - who knows, someone may have an even better twist or easier way to do things. Regardless, by next weekend, we'll take what we have and go with it. Meantime, please keep the replies coming!

10 CD box from Germany, with 200 tunes...but that's all the info I can find. Anyone have or know about this that can comment on sound quality, what is represented, etc?

Just saw this title recently and I'm intrigued - from the Ocium label (Spain). Is this a legit operation (is it affiliated with Fresh Sound, which would turn me away)? How is the music? What sessions are represented?

I actually didn't think you misinterpreted my intentions, Lon. I'm probably not being very clear in my posts (been up since 4 AM) - what I meant above was that your first post just triggered something in me to want to make my intentions about the idea as clear as possible for anyone reading my post, particularly my strong conviction that it should not become a competition. That was it!

Cool, Matthew, you are so right that everyone's response to music is intensely personal. Hopefully my post didn't come off as "disagreeing" with you, since your response is perfectly valid, rather just wanted to say I respond a lot differently! B)

Wise points, Dan. The more I think about those things, CD-R's sound like a better approach... Lon - sorry to hear you're not interested, I was looking forward to your being part of the fun! But I do understand also. Your post did prompt me to want to clarify my thinking on this for others: I am hoping this would NOT turn into a competition of any kind to see who can get x % right - I personally think that's good for a laugh on occasion, but not my main intent here. That's why my preference would NOT be to have voting type of posts, I mentioned it as an option some might enjoy but I would rather just see open-ended discussion. My personal take is that when the selections are carefully chosen, blindfold tests can trigger listening in a different way and hearing things one might not have appreciated in usual listening. Connections and developments across eras and musicians in particular can emerge. Plus it is a healthy opportunity, in my view, to have one's dearly held preconceptions tested and sometimes broken down...blindfold tests can of course be very humbling (they OFTEN are for me) and as such spur me to question things like some assumptions that I might make about a particular artist or form of jazz. I might find myself really digging something and then, lo and behold, it turns out the artist is someone that I've never given a fair shake in the past (I certainly try not to be biased or close-minded, but let's face it, we all do it at times - so I say this from personal experience). Anyway, none of this is meant to "convince" you personally of the merit of blindfold testing, Lon - I totally understand and know many people dislike them. Just wanted to make sure my intentions were clear, and to put in a plug up front for this to NOT degenerate into a kind of "I got more of them right than you did" contest!

I don't think this one's NPR-worthy, Jim - 'cause we're much closer together from the start! B) OK, I think I understand your point a little better now, but I would only point out that as a seasoned listener (not only to the Plugged Nickel but to music in general) AND a musician, your vantage point is going to be dramatically different than that of someone who's trying to find a way "in" to these recordings. As you say yourself, you have "firsthand knowledge of how an interactional improvisational band operates," while I'm pretty certain the gentleman who posted the original question doesn't - thus, his original question, which is what I had firmly in mind when I posted. I am a hack amateur musician but dedicated listener; I can only speak from personal experience, which was that I did what I'm advising when I first began listening to the Plugged Nickel stuff, then broadened my vistas so that now I do in fact "listen holistically" and you're clearly right, you get a lot more from the experience by doing so. But sometimes you need to start with "baby steps" - I couldn't absorb it all up front, and focusing on the central triumvirate helped my listening brain get oriented. So I personally DON'T think most people coming from that place are going to be able to do what you're asking them to do right up front. Sure, SOME might, but I suspect (and could be wrong) that most won't be able to do it. That's where my advice came (and comes) from. I definitely realize that others, wired differently, may find other ways in even if they are not trained musicians. If we still disagree at that point, no problem, let's shall - and of course he'll end up doing whatever he does, so all this "sage advice" is probably moot anyway!

Glad to hear it may not be an insurmountable task, Dan! (and no, you didn't miss anything in the editing except some typos and me putting the post inappropriately under the Album of the Week heading...it's WAY early to be up on a Saturday!). I actually agree with you about the timing of starting the thread and posting, I meant something like that but it came across garbled. I'm interested to see if our kind board administrators might be able to help with a technological fix to obviate the need for CD-R's, but if not, I think it can be done....assuming others come on line.

The head angle and pose are strikingly similar, but the resemblance DEFINITELY ends there...

I had a crazy thought at about 4 AM this morning while trying to get our new baby to drift back off to sleep: what if those board members who were interested in participating set up a virtual blindfold test, a la Downbeat? Here's how I envision it working: 1. Like AOW, someone would be selected to lead each test 2. That person would put together a CD-R of tracks by various artists from either a) their own collection, B ) solicitations of other board members to send them tracks, or c) a combo of the above. Probably option (a) would be most popular for logistical reasons. The number would be up to discretion of the organizer, but probably no more than 10 would be best. 3. The tracks would be selected totally at the discretion of the blindfold test leader. However, it would be fun if there were some kind of "theme" that would emerge (not be disclosed up front). For example, maybe a guitarist-focused test one time, or a classic bebop era focus, or organ jazz, or something more imaginitive like trying to identify a lineage in approach (composition, playing, instrument) over all eras of jazz. 4. Once everyone who wanted a copy let the organizer know, the CD-R copies would be made and sent to the participants. 5. Finally, some time (a month?) later, a post would be put up for the blindfold test where the "answers" would be given and the organizer would disclose the theme and any other points they wanted to make, followed by discussion. There would be other possible permutations - for example, having a mutiple choice poll type set up, where people could come and select who they think the artist is on each track from a list of several possibilties, which would narrow it down a bit (let's face it, this could be a TOUGH job!). Pros I see with this idea: lots of fun, and a chance to test our ears and separate the men and women from girls and boys! Cons: labor intensive for the organizer, but if we did say one a quarter, not insurmountable. Main labor would be in making the original CD-R, copying and sending it (no liner notes etc needed) would be relatively easy. Might have to limit the number of participants some for each one if it got too crazy. I'm not "married" to this idea and there might be much smarter ways to do it (e.g. would it be possible to somehow have the Board Administrator post downloadable sound files for the test, working with the blindfold test organizer on getting the right tracks posted, thereby obviating the need for the CD-R hassle?) - but wanted to get it out on the table...what do people think?

I'll be pulling out my vinyl copy of BLACK MARKET to relisten, good idea to prompt a re-evaluation of this one! It always struck me as very much Zawinul's album (not in terms of soloing but for structure and tone) in the old days, but it's honestly been quite a few years since I listened. In the meantime - re: the negative comments about HEAVY WEATHER, to paraphrase the immortal words of Mr. Hand in "Fast Times at Ridgement High" - what are you people, on dope? Sure, more tightly arranged and pop oriented than what had come before, but a MONSTER pop album nonetheless. If only all pop music was this musical and refined and eminently hummable. Some of Zawinul and Shorter's best songwriting for the band, and Jaco is just all over the case (and to be honest, I've never enjoyed his playing much in more open-ended environments, in which he often takes every opportunity to show off - give me the Jaco of HEAVY WEATHER and Joni Mitchell's HEJIRA any day...I'm with you Big Al!).

Eddie Lang/Joe Venuti - 1920's/30's (JSP), disc 2 Sacha Distel - JAZZ GUITARIST (Universal France) Flip Phillips - VERVE/CLEF SESSIONS (Mosaic), disc 3 JAZZ FOR A SUNDAY AFTERNOON (BN) - Corea, Elvin Jones, Richard Davis, Marvin Stamm, Joe Farrell, Garnett Brown from a 1967 Vanguard set Bill Watrous - MANHATTAN WILDLIFE REFUGE (Columbia) Pavement - SLANTED AND ENCHANTED (Matador) Bjork - VESPERTINE (Elektra) Tico All Stars - DESCARGAS: LIVE AT THE VILLAGE GATE VOL. 1 (Tico) And several times through the Bach's Brandenburg Concertos, during baby feeding time

Happy Birthday, Big John! I wasn't lucky enough to have ever seen him play or meet family members, so the closest I get to "knowing" the man is through John Zorn's wonderful liner notes for BOOGALOO - reading those, and hearing Big John's funky B3, always brings a smile to my face.

Can't say I disagree with you on pretty much all points, Jim. This is a true 5 man effort, par excellance. I particularly like your comments about Hancock's accompaniment - and agree on all counts. I also KNEW you would chime in at the word "secondary" being used in my post - honestly, I predicted it. Stickler for semantics, that JSngry! As I pretty clearly tried to point out in my original post, I did not mean to use the word as in "less important" or "superfluous." I simply meant that I continue to firmly hear Shorter/Davis/Williams as the bedrock of MOST (not all) of the Plugged Nickel music - just as the traditional "rhythm section" forms the bedrock of much traditional hard bop. That of course does not make the other musicians "less important" - and in NO WAY does that mean that I am somehow saying I wish this had been the Great Plugged Nickel Trio...of course not! But in honesty I do think the music would actually play QUITE well as just tenor, trumpet and drums - in NO WAY as well as it does with the whole Quintet, of course, and I for one would hate to miss all that great spare Hancock playing and some of Ron Carter's best ever recorded work, but nonetheless it could effectively stand on its own in that form while it would NOT play very well at all if you eliminated any one of those three foundation pillars. There may be examples in the box that are counter to this general rule, but not many. And all THAT relates back to the original question posed - how can one BEGIN to "get in" to the music when listening? So I still say, listen to the pillars first, and then try and broaden your detailed attention to include what Ron and Herbie are doing. That's my guidance and I'm stickin' to it! -_- As for this idea of sadness in hearing the Plugged Nickel box - I DO NOT not hear that. I hear anger maybe, and lots of sheer joy, but no sadness. To me, this music is about discarding jazz labels, categories, and poses and glimpsing the possibility of capturing a form of this great music that is both timeless and constantly on the edge of new frontiers. If you heard the music without knowing who had played it or when, you could easily believe it was recorded yesterday. My conviction is that we'll still be saying that in 50 years, and a lot longer. And yet the history of the music is there at ready reference without one moment ever sounding contrived or like the group is overtly "referencing" the past. The Plugged Nickel music is, then, from the past, present, and future while (thankfully) ultimately belonging to no one.

I totally agree with Scott and Matthew. I would also observe that individual songs don't really matter in the conventional sense - yes, the group uses the melodies and structures as springboards for improv, but they go way beyond those confines. One of the ways I go "in" to this music is to listen to the interplay between Miles and Tony Williams and then what Wayne Shorter lays over and around that. Those are the three pillars that I think this music was built upon. Ron Carter adds some nice harmonic and rhythmic twists and Herbie plays nicely and with truly amazing restraint, but to be honest I often feel those 2 are peripheral to the main drama in this set (NOT superfluous, but secondary). That is definitely NOT the case on contemporary studio recordings by this Quintet, which is interesting. Finally, I know some find the harshness of Miles' trumpet sound on these recordings a bit off-putting. A little on the brittle bright side, some due to his chops and a lot due to the recording. But if you can get past that minor blemish, the recordings are magic.

Hawk, the grandaddy. Even Lester, great as he was, honed his distinctive sound as a foil to the Hawkins sound. What Hawkins did was staggering. Still, like many here, I don't listen to Hawk as much as many of the others listed. So in the category of great tenor artists that I never tire of listening to, wanted to put in a plug for Ben Webster - one of the most imminently accessible yet truly great musicians there ever was - Lucky Thompson (my sentimental favorite for this poll), and Stan Getz, who few seem to mention in such competitions but who created a way heavenly sound.

I'm envious, Ed. I have never been disappointed yet by a Mosaic box, so I pretty much want everything they put out (with the Four Freshmen a probable exception - fine music I'm sure but really not my thing) so generally go in chronological order by earliest release date (unless something is slated to go OOP out of sequence). Can't wait to get to the Johnny Smith! The GOOD news is that I ordered the Kenton Presents Cooper/Holman/Rosolino, and for the True Blue $5 off stuff ordered the Benny Goodman Trio/Quartet RCA 3CD box (been eyeing that one forever) and both the Elmo Hope Beacon and Celebrity LPs (OK, had to pay full price for one of those but what the heck!). I'm hoping this package will arrive today - it's due! I will be pulling the trigger again REAL soon, sometime in early August. Too good to pass up these rare deals.

I must confess to being totally mystified when people make a big deal about great artists' vocalizing. Sorry to sound crabby, but the mention of these Lewis albums triggered my ire a bit - they are really quiet and full of space, so of course you're going to hear a few grunts here and there, but I would not have dreamed in a million years that anyone would ever have singled them out as problematic in this area. At least with Jarrett, you can understand the comment because it's so prominent, but even there, I just have to shake my head and conclude that some people are just looking for things to complain about. If the vocalizing helps/helped these artists come up with the bliningly brilliant music they do/did, then more power to them - grunt and groan and moan away, dudes! It's really not that hard for anyone involved enough in music to listen carefully to jazz to simply train your ear to listen to the music and tune out the groans and grunts. Just deal with it!

Close match, but the Plugged Nickel box beats out the Gil Evans by just a nose. They're all wonderful in terms of the music, though, none are less than essential IMHO. Personally, I'd add in the recent Blackhawk 4 CD set as belonging in the same class as this listing.

Not that I think it really matters except for helping you remember where you filed it, but no, clearly not a jazz album. A very good pop record, though, and that's not faint praise coming from me as it might be from some others.

Been listenin' to a lot of Kenny lately, without knowing it was his birthday - spooky, huh? Savored disc 1 of the INTRODUCING KENNY BURRELL 2-CD Conn the other night...Burrell in fiery form, with the great added bonus of Kenny Clarke. Also picked up MOTEN SWING! THE COLUMBIA INSTRUMENTAL SESSIONS 1961-2 (Sundazed) and have to say that this is not just good but GREAT Kenny, definitely unjustly neglected work. He's amazing.

The bottom line is that I have yet to read anything unbiased that makes even a remotely convincing case for cloth diapers being environmentally superior to disposables. I alluded to this above. The environmental "science" implicating disposables as the worse option is incredibly soft and sadly reactionary - all too typical in the knee jerk "anything new is automatically anathema for the environment" mindset. Here's a nice balanced look at the issue, from Ohio State, that concludes there is no good scientific evidence to suggest either option is clearly environmentally superior: Cloth vs Disposable They conclude something very much like my wife and I concluded: "In areas where land is plentiful but water is in short supply disposable diapers may be the more environmentally responsible choice. In areas experiencing solid waste problems and decreasing landfills, but have adequate water supplies, cloth diapers or a combination of cloth and disposables may be the most environmentally responsible choice." Volume of use is a big issue cloth advocates seldom acknowledge as something that clearly needs to be figured into the equation. Right now, the "market share" for is teensy (only 4% of parents use cloth exclusively, while 15% trade off between cloth and disposable), so a few often holier than thou individuals can go this route and feel smarmy about THEIR not being part of the environmental problem (oh no sir, not me, I'm GREEN!). However, if everyone in the U.S. switched wholesale from disposables to cloth, cloth would entail at least as much of an environmental impact as disposables do currently, and I suspect much greater given the water burden in much of our country. Laundering just one large load of cloth diapers requires 30 to 45 gallons of water, half of which is heated and all of which is processed as waste water. Do the math on that one, and it makes the landfill problem look rather insignificant. This type of scale issue is often a fatal flaw in some of the more blindly "green" reasoning out there - some of the just plain stupid options being promulgated are fine and dandy when a tiny fraction of the population thinks they're the stuff, but they would be completely impractical when considered on a larger scale. Anyway, my point was not to deride cloth diapers as much as to say that I see definite pros and cons to both options. We are a pretty conscientious couple where the environment is concerned, and we thought this out a lot before going disposable. Alexander's and my joking aside, I have not a whit of guilt about the choice. As a related aside: more people ought to read Jack Hollander's book THE REAL ENVIRONMENTAL CRISIS. Hollander is a Professor Emeritus at UC Berkeley, a physicist and long-time champion of rational environmentalism. His book is full of wake up calls for anyone who automatically assumes that all industry and technological advances are inherently bad for the environment.

The problem with the Diaper Genie is that it picks up with the changing process only AFTER you've managed, though a combination of luck, skill, and sheer force of will, to extract the loaded diaper from the baby without hopelessly contaminating his "onesie," his feet (yes, they LOVE to flex and wriggle their legs around so their feet inevitably go right into the open, soiled diaper), your own hands, the changing table cover, the adjoining wall...well, you get the picture. Not to mention the added complexity entailed by having a little boy baby - let's just say poop is not the only bodily fluid you have to have a healthy respect for. Jim - how's THAT for graphic! So here's an open call to the scientific community: someone should work on cleaning up this pre-disposal part of the diaper changing procedure...I'm envisioning something like one of those hermetically sealed cleanroom clear plexiglas containers, where you put your hands into the container through cut-outs while wearing a nuclear suit. The Nobel Prize is there for the taking.

Your wish is my command! There's an actual "how to use" on the Web: go to this page Diaper Genie How To and click on "How to Set Up and Use." By the way, totally agree with Alexander. Our little boy was 2 weeks old this AM, and he's already doing stuff that I know babies are not supposed to be able to do until 2 MONTHS. He smiles purposely (not just gas), reaches out for my face (again with purpose, not just lucky flails), and has amazing neck control. Then again, when have you ever met a parent who DIDN'T think their child was light years ahead of the curve in terms of intelligence, cuteness, and motor skills! -_-