Big Beat Steve

Received my box set through Amazon yesterday and am looking forward to giving it a listen (though for the time being my find at yesterday's local record clearout sale - some 60 platters - will be given priority ). Had a look at the CD "liner notes" booklet too. Nice booklet, an introductory chapter that looks very interesting and useful comments on the individual tunes. I guess I will print that one out before giving the CDs a closer listen as I hate having to scramble from my music room to where the PC is each time I want to read up on the individual tracks. I cannot qute fathom, however, what the "Four-volume discography" is supposed to be. It sho' ain't no discography. Looks more like a release number listing to me, and one of inconsequent methodology: Some codes - such as GD - seem to be missing in the abbreviation list, and other releases seem to be incorrect if the listing is supposed to give the ORIGINAL release: e.g. was "The Wamp" really unreleased at the time or was it rather "The Vamp" on Bluebird, as borne out by Rust's discography where the track sequences of that session is the same as on the Tax LP quoted. BTW, that "GD" code is a case similar to that "Tax" example as it refers to a much later reissue of a track originally on Federal 12066, according to Leadbitter/Slaven. And the listing by track name isn't really very convenient to this user either. A listing in the order of the CD track sequence would have been much logical IMO if such a listing were to be established at all. Anyway, if no discography in the proper sense of the word (i.e. session details) is to be included, then so be it (it's understandable all in all), but wouldn't it have been much more convenient to just give the original release number right behind each title and artist credits in the list of comments on the individual tracks? That would have kept all the relevant info in one place. But no, overall this is no big deal, really, just a bit irritating.

You know one man's meat is another man's poison anyway and no doubt others were happy to snap up a lot of that easy listening/MOR stuff (I saw some drooling about those 60s easy listening orchestras, in fact). And I did pick up a few non-jazz "oddball" pop items too (like I said, how can you go wrong at that price? The 2-hour dig was well worth it. No time, though, to go back tomorrow for another round. But not doubt if they sold off a "collection" at you Music Exchange that must have been even more of a treasure chest.

Went to a local record store today (one of the few real brick and mortar shops left in town) for a huuuge secondhand clearance sale. Everything went at 1 euro apiece - LPs, CDs, 10-inchers, EPs, singles. Had to sift through an awful lot of pop/disco/MOR/easy listening/light classics/kids records dross (hit rate less than 1 per 100, I guess) but it was well worth it. These are just the period/early originals (not counting the 70s/80s reissues): The usual cover wear on many of then but how can you go wrong at 1 euro apiece? At that kind of money you can take chances and buy items even for their covers only. Of course I already had some of the music but if you can replace a nondescript later reissue with a nicer early pressing then this is the time. Vinyl mostly looks like they came from careful collectors' homes but some look like they've seen a fair bit of party use (including the Lil Abner, of all platters! ) Wish that days like that came along a bit more often ...

@J.A.W.: Amazon.de. 62.99 euros. A bit more than the $66 charged by Allen (+ very likely 19% VAT charged by customs as it is above the duty-free limit of $50) but not THAT much more, really.

Of course I cannot vouch for anybody among those, but somehow I feel that at least in SOME cases (don't ask me about percentages ) that "gangsta" attitude is just an attempt at "posing". A rather nasty one but still one more out to gain attention among their group peers. Times do change, but just try to picture somebody with the "track record" of Leadbelly in today's rap scene and try to imagine Leadbelly's musical career in today's rap terms. The weay the media would wriote it up, it would make a real nasty character, wouldn't it, and where would he rate in public esteem if (as has been the case with Leadbelly IIRC) he'd landed back in the can AFTER having "sung" his way out of jail a first time? Don't get me wrong, I certainly would not want to belittle the potential criminal energy of SOME of those rappers (and I do feel uneasy about some aspects of it all too, at least the way it's being shown in the media) and to a certain degree you cannot avoid comparing apples with oranges because times do change indeed. Yet I fail to see where the difference is between smacking a woman around (to stay with your eaxmple) in 1949 and in 2010. And don't tell me it never occurred in real life then (and was sung about). But I'll leave the analyses of the autobiographic content of blues and rap lyrics to others.

Indeed, but that was not my motivation this time. I just did not fancy having to do a one-hour round trip to the customs office (and the risk is real that customs would step in, making me pay another 19% VAT on the purchase price plus shipping).

Very good point (and a point much too seldom made). That said, except for a few minutes' worth of novelty value each time I've never really liked any of that rap that I've heard in likely and unlikely places, and I cannot see it as any form of real jazz either, but as a grassroots music movement reflecting its times, social conditions and background I am quite willing to say it very likely is today's R&B. And quite legitimately so. If you look closely (leaving the actual musical "craft" and styles aside but they are a matter of taste anyway), there are parallels indeed. And as for that violence, misoginy (and what not) accusations, come on ... don't you remember all your blues lyrics of waaaay back? How many blues songs have there been with the line of "I'm gonna kill that woman" (and didn't they sound pretty serious?), how often have vulgarity, booze, drugs and adultery been featured VERY prominently in these lyrics? What would have been the percentage of vocal R&B of the 40s and early 50s that would be blacklisted as being "unsuitable for airplay" in today's cleaned-up, whitewashed, sterilized-to-death, oh so politically correct media world? So please don't confuse the artificial outrage dictated by the overly sanitized "do's and don'ts" of a (re-)puritan(ized) society with any alleged "lewdness" that would make those lyrics that much worse than what has been around before. IMHO these gangsta lyrics often are just an immature put-on by kids mentally stuck halfway in childhood (a bit different to someone in his late 30s singing about doing his woman in ).

So this means I did well in ordering my copy of this 9-CD set through amazon. :D Saved you a lot of trouble, and anyway ... if I figure in the 19% VAT customs duty I would have been likely to pay on the price when collecting that shipment coming from the US (not even mentioning the time and fuel spent to got to the customs office), then the amazon rate is only marginally higher.

Nice story! But one must be really dedicated to appreciate (or even cherish) the consequences.

I have full runs (minus 1 or 2 issues, maybe) of the German mag JAZZ PODIUM up to and including 1966 as well as the Swedish mags ORKESTER JOURNALEN and ESTRAD up to late 1963. If you think this would help, I can check them for references to Don Cherry and forward photocopies.

I have the Columbia "The Beginning and the End" LP listed above, and the liner notes by Dan Morgenstern describe this date as the "last" known recordings. However, at one point a couple of years ago I crossed out that date on the cover and wrote "31 May 1955" there so apparently I must have read somewhere (can't recall where) that this information on the LP clearly is incorrect. Small wonder ... nobody is perfect, the reissue dates from 1973 and more recent research may have unearthed that May date as being the correct one.

Ah, OK then! Although ... one never knows, do one??

Has it?? My understanding (and recollection) is that there have been several threads on this board since 2006 or so that have dwelt on this subject quite extensively. But if you would like to extend the scope of this thread to the doings of a couple of reissue labels from other (non-Iberian) countries to discuss the fact if it is just coincidence or a clever, cost-cutting strategy (with all that's involved in this cost cutting ) that by sheer coincidence their "artist" or "theme" releases or boxes coincide with other (previous) reissues and (in the case of the artists) cover virtually the same material all over again or (in the case of V.A. "theme" compilations) duplicate two thirds or three quarters of other V.A. boxes on the same theme (all within the Public domain period, of course) then that might make for a mighty interesting thread. :D It is a wide field you know ... @Fer Urbina: I plead guilty to confusing that Eddie Costa Lonehill reissue with Fresh Sound. However, that annoying Fresh Sound policy of combining two LPs (of which at least one had previously been reissued by F.S. themselves on LP) on on single CD can be found elsehere too. And it makes any attempts of LP AND CD buyers to extend their Fresh Sound LP reissue coverage into CDs rather a frustrating undertaking.

About the influences on Gryce as mentioned in these liner notes: "Four in particular come to Gryce's mind, and he feels that mention should be made of them somewhere so that others may know. ... Then there is Goon Gardner of the Earl Hines band, and Gigi gives some idea of his prowess by saying that because he had the alto chair with Hines, Parker, when he joined the band, was asked to play tenor."

Wasn't he in the unrecorded Earl Hines band of 1942-43? So was he possibly one of the "unruly early boppers" there or a straight swing man? What do the documents on that band say?

I agree with you there - when I wrote my above statement I was immediately thinking of Uptown as a "different" matter, and I find those plagiate duplicates of Uptown reissues highly unethical too. Yet, as often mentioned before, there are other cases (outside the Spanish/Andorran fraternity) that look comparable to me, except that these are not as widely criticized HERE because the music it is all about does not fall within the core realm of bop/hard bop dear to the hearts of oh so many here (in short, other potentially "seamy" labels might deserve threads like this too). BUT - what I meant to stress are Fresh Sound (and similar labels') reissues of music that really, really nowhere else (least of all in the US of A) get any attention reissue-wise and that those who just MIGHT still have the rights just don't give a hoot about.

Even if it was so ... any label that reissues items less than 50 years old (i.e. not covered by the current EU public domain cutoff date) will be at risk, no matter what the name of the label is. If any authority would really want to investigate they should be able to overcome this hurdle of different label names just as well, and AFAIK it would not be exactly without risk either if somebody were just to distribute these labels here (if there was a royalty no-payment problem). So what would they really gain if they held a catalog of nominally different labels for distribution? Which is exactly the same with those US reissuers who have their material produced and pressed in Europe in order to take advantage of a 50-year (vs. 70-year) limit. No, look at it any way you want, the core of the problem remains the downright rotten, lousy, couldn't-care-less, spiteful attitude of the U.S (or wherever they may currently be) "owners" of the rights who evidently prefer to let everything remain OOP forever.

Many FS LPs of that period came with 4-page inlays with lists of their then "current" catalog and back catalog. Should include the bulk of it. You never seen any of these?

Would have liked to have been at that garage sale where this feller probably grabbed this seam-split, party-worn VG- graded platter at something like ... 99c or so?? :D

Quite likely, especially in the Orkester Journalen mags from the years when he was in his prime (record reviews, maybe a feature article or "News from the USA" coverage etc.). But obviously these mags are in Swedish.

It's a totally original album (Epic LN 3278), and it's really great indeed.

What's wrong with or derogatory about referring to your "special-interest" leisure activites as a "hobby"?? Actually that's the term I'd more or less automatically connect with what we are talking about here, i.e. (in our case) an area of leisure activity, exploring or collecting that far exceeds any casual level of interest and that you engage in on a regular/permanent basis over a long period of time (maybe all your life) outside your day-to-day job. The French call it "passion" but that word's connotations would be a bit different in English, I guess. I find that Bev's earlier remark that those who never got into any subject of personal interest that really kept them busy, interested and concentrated would invariably wither away once they had reached retirement really is spot on. While I find those oft-heard remarks that "no I am in retirement I need to get a hobby" to be highly superficial (if you really are interested you don't just "get" a hobby like you don a cap or a jacket but rather it has got to be something that strikes that special chord (or your interests) with you) it really is so IMHO that everybody ought to have a "hobby" of their own to keep them INTERESTED (i.e. prepared to actively and individually - on your OWN terms - pursue an activity that goes well beyond simple consumption of what you are exposed to through the mass media day in, day out). I am not so sure it is a class thing either. I know a lot of people of (more or less) working class background who have "hobbies" that they really live for to a quite extreme degree (though admittedly jazz record collecting isn't usually among them ). And they, too (like the middle class that I would consider myself part of), definitely do define their lives through those "hobbies". A job is a job and you got to do it well (ya gotta eat ) but it is those "hobbies" where you really come into your own. And I'd know more than one (me included) who build a huge part of their private lives around their "hobbies" (e.g. in the sense that your private agenda is built around them - haven't we all scheduled a trip to a far away town in accordance with, maybe, a particular concert we'd like to attend there or a record fair we just NEED to check out in that town? ).

Up! (To edit the initial listing of mags) All the French mags are gone, some of the Swedish and German ones are also about to go, but ther still are plenty available.

Ehhh .... Rudy Ray Moore's recording career started waaay back deep in the 50s. See here ... http://www.cduniverse.com/search/xx/music/pid/1072107/a/Hully+Gully+Fever.htm

Now if the Byrds or Flying Burrito Brothers already inspire a new batch of bands resurrecting their musical styles (in the same manner it has been done with country string bands, western swing or rockabilly, for example) then I KNOW I must be getting old! :D That said, this statement of yours, Revisionist? Deviastionist? Conservative? ... No idea, But it sounds great and doesn't stop me listening to any of the sources sums up the enjoyment of these "roots" bands rather nicely as far as I am concerned.