Big Beat Steve

I agree with Brownie. You goofed in a big way! Both of these twofers are exellent thanks to all the participants involved. (And the liner notes describing e.g. Brew Moore's trip way out West in the company of Woody Guthrie are very ... er... enlightening, too. )

Don't tell me this name (typically Belgian, BTW) is more complicated than the average Welsh town name?? :D Anyway, it's good to see this discpography is being revised. Seems like it is far more accessbile (fiancially speaking) than Lord's.

As a seller, I used to leave feedback as soon as I had received payment. After a few times when customers busted my balls unreasonably after I had exercised my feedback option, I decided that no feedback should be left until both parties are satisfied. The seller is satisfied when the payment arrives on time, and the buyer is satisfied when the item arrives and is acceptable. I watch my feedback regularly, and when I receive feedback, I know that the customer is satisfied, and so I respond. In the occasional instances when the customer has a problem with the item, I try to resolve the situation without hostility, and I have even received positive feedback from people who requested a refund. If there were no sellers who are apt to make use of retaliatory negative feedback (though the buyer has done everything to satisfy by paying lightning fast and making every humanly possible attempt at providing ALL the information as fast as possible) your attitude would be perfectly acceptable. But as it is (sellers using feedback as a weapon against buyers who dare to complain) this attitude is manoeuvering both parties into a dead end. Sad to say this but that's how it is (luckily I've only had to witness this with friends who've been the targets of such action as buyers but that was sad enough). Remember it is not all that rare for buyers to pay up promptly but then wait endlessly for the goods. No shipping notice from the seller (probably considered unnecessary on the grounds forwarded by jazzhound) and not even any replies to e-mail inquiries about the whereabouts of the goods, and this situation drags on for weeks. Now what are bidders supposed to do under these circumstances? It is not only bidders that may turn out to be deadbeat, it is sellers too! The buyer's only weapon under these circumstances is to leave appropriate feedback. Guess what this kind of seller is bound to do, then, though? At any rate, it is abusive to claim it is part of the buyer's DUTIES to leave feedback BEFORE the seller leaves feedback. Just my 2c

To a European interested in the history of popular music, this whole debate is pointless or, to put it another way, it 's a case of GROSS MISLABELING. ROCK'N'ROLL in the true sense of the word is ONLY the rock music made from approx. 1954 to 1963 (before the British Invasion gained full momentum), i.e. Rock'n'Roll used as a denominator for as the mainstream style within the genre, plus subgenres such as Rockabilly, the R'n'R end of R&B of that time, Doo-Wop, Instrumental R'n'R, Surf, etc., PLUS those musicians/bands/acts that played after the end of the R'n'R era and still play (or play again) in that idiom today (and the musical subculture of true R'n'R is still alive and kicking all around the world, cf. the numerous R'n'R/Rockabilly weekenders such as those in Las Vegas, etc.). Anything that came after the real R'n'R of '54 to '63 just ain't that - it may be Garage Punk, Psychedelic Rock, Folk Rock, Hard Rock, Indpeendent Rock, Heavy Metal, Punk Rock, and everything that came on afterwards but as long as it does not fall into the stylistic genres of real R'n'R as delimited above it's not that (and no R'n'R lover over here would classify it as R'n'R) but just plain ROCK. Nothing wrong with that, but let's call it by its proper name. :D (Yeah, I know, US pop listeners and the Powers-that-be ever in search of a marketing tag draw the line elsewhere, and yet ... ) This way of arguing just dilutes things endlessly if you throw everything into the same pot, and in the end the term R'n'R becomes totally meaningless. That said, I wholeheartedly agree with Van Basten II's statement about Commercial Music Hall of Fame above. Most of those nominees (with the obvious exception of the Ventures) just ain't beeen part of the actual R'n'R movement, least of all stylistically.

Interesting debate, especially as you get to hear both sides (buyer and seller). As a non-U.S. buyer who buys from both US and domestic sources (though far less frequently than I used to), on the whole I find that U.S. sellers tend to be more polite than others (especially those that I figure are private sellers, whereas communication practices of a lot of those high-volume turnover professional "powersellers" leave a lot to be desired). As for timely payment and non-acknowledgment as well as nonexistent info on shipping having been made (important with overseas shipments), this is one thing that has often bugged me too. What annoys me in this context is those sellers in particular that insist on leaving feedback ONLY AFTER feedback having been left for them, often even claiming leaving feeback is part of the BUYERS's duties. Come on now! The buyer's duties are to communicate rapidly, provinding the info required to the seller rapidly and paying rapidly and that's that! The moment the buyer has paid up in a timely manner that's the end of his duties in the transaction - whereas the seller's duties obviously include packaging and shipping in a timely manner as well. So the buyer's duties end before (often WELL before) those of the seller, and sellers that have nothing to hide have no reason to refuse leaving feedback as soon as they have received payment (some actually do leave feedback this early) and before sending the goods. Everything else is an attempt at holding the buyer hostage throughout the entire transaction (so the seller can leave retaliatory negative feedback at his whim later on). I wonder what the stance of other forumists is on this? At any rate, I've long since given up leaving any feedback at all for any of those sellers who engage in the above practices (except if I am EXCEEDINGLY pleased with the transaction upon reception of the goods). But it seems like feedback is more important to U.S. sellers than to European sellers anyway.

Just to have a really informed opinion: Brownie, how would you rate the Chet Baker live album (Witch Doctor) with the LH All Stars in comparison?

I have most the LH All Stars albums and prefer - In The Solo Spotlight and - Music For Lighthousekeeping as well as Sunday Jazz A La Lighthouse (the one that has "Creme de Menthe" and "Viva Zapata" etc.) too. And just like MG said, that early "Big Boy" recording (plus the later "More B.B.") kicks some serious ass! However, I am a bit underwhelmed by the "Flute/Oboe" album. It's all a bit effeminate to my taste and even if you do not take your jazz in the form of all-night horn blowing sessions only it is items like this that, when taken in overdoses, probably gave West Coast jazz its (unfoundedly) poor reputation as something just too gutless.

Why take all the fun out of collecting just by keeping the same covers and labels everywhere, Chewy? :D Different countries, different customs, that's all. It was part of the deal for some reason back then, and probably due to import duties/shipping, etc. it seems to have been far more lucrative to press the items locally instead of shipping the records worldwide. Even in the mid-70s when I started collecting (and even afterwards) there were lots of wisecracks in the record stores that stuck an outrageous price tag on any item that just looked like it was an "Import LP" (even if it only came from, say, France or Britain and not from across the Pond to Germany). Be glad that German pressings did not go that far astray. Even when Metronome and later Bellaphon issued Prestige they usually retained the U.S. artwork and just used their own printing facilities and own materials for the covers. BTW, in France it wasn't just Prestige (maybe I ought to give those French pressing(s) on the Bel-Air label I have a spin again?) and Atlantic but also others such as Mercury and Columbia that had their own French covers.

Funny that THIS tune should be discussed in such detail. As for jazz musicians not really liking plot-related musical tunes such as those by Rodgers/Hammerstein, jazz musicians sure improved this one a LOT when they took it up! I always hated the tune as sung in the movie (boy, what gutless, artificial, stilted howling! :D) but I do like Miles Davis' version a lot. BTW, as for Tom Storer's question about what surreys are, this term seems to have made it into common usage as a fairly ridiculous description of one version of a horse-drawn buggy. I remember a quote in a motor road test from approx. 1960 where the author had been wondering about the attitude of parts of the public that there was no need for this or that car to be that fast. So he went on to write: "Gents, if this attitude had prevailed in 1905 we'd still be cruising in motorized surreys with fringes on top, taking corners at 5 mph!" As a result the object of this song title has had somewhat ridiculous connotations for me ever since. Thanks for Miles Davis for making it much more palatable. To get back to the original subject, I am not so sure if the current use of "cover" versions beyond carbon copies recorded to cash in on a pop hit song is all that incorrect. Maybe the term "cover" as often used today is to hint at the lack of originality of those who play mostly covers instead of originals, especially in rock and pop music? Of course I wouldn't consider Miles' "Surrey" version a "cover", and most jazz "versions" of previously recorded tunes would not fit those descriptions either (with the possible exception of some stock arrangement recordings of well-known big band tunes).

Ha, good to see I am not the only one acting that way! Well, in fact, almost ... Out of my 5000+ vinyls and 500+ CDs I may have sold maybe 10 or 20 LP's or so (not counting duplicates, of course) through the years that really fell outside what I really eventually wanted to COLLECT (i.e. errors committed in my much younger days) but that was all.

Have both of them. Will look up the tracks tonight when I get home form work. As far as I remember these compilations are made up of various 78 rpm sessions usually comprised of 4 tunes each. Teddy is not featured thorughout, of course, but both volumes are recommended!

That Bethlehem (BCP-14) LP by Urbie DOES have Al Cohn on tenor, bass clarinet and flute. That "Ike Horowitz" is just pseudonym for Al (one might almost have guessed ). See here: http://www.jazzdiscography.com/fitzgera/pseudo.htm As for the music, just like Larry Kart said: Depends on what you're after. Diehard hard bop aficinonados will probably find it all too conventional but if you're in the market for some of the younger "Mainstream" or "Middle jazz" heroes of the 50s then this is for you. And wouldn't be Fresh Sounds's reissue of the Bethlehem, Blue Note and Vanguard LP's on ONE disc metioned in that other BN 10" Conn thread be the best buy (never mind that single track missing from the Bethlehem LP)? That is, unless you have the other two already anyway.

Just for info: Is it because of who owned this material originally (or only leased it on BN) that the FATS SADI 10" BN Lp has escaped most (if not all) of those reissue programs?

The Now And Then album on Stash listed in the discography is a nice replacement if you can't get her 1959 Warwick album as it includes part of that album (I placed several unsccessful bids for the Warwick original on eBay through the years so it seems to be coveted). BTW - who's that sax player in the pics? Willene Barton? (Just a wild guess...)

No, as far as I was able to make out all the pictures were taken during concerts and/or backstage, etc. in Holland. I assume the reason you are asking is that Tete Montoliu was on stage that night too, right? Good luck finding documents of that concert!

Just did a little checking myself ... Online antique book sellers list the 1959 book from 380 euros! And even the German edition of the JAzz 1955-1959-1961 book of the early 90s (Nieswand Verlag) starts at some 98 euros. I remember it wasn't cheap when I bought it new, but this ... (and the price of your Dutch edition?) ... Oh my ...

That 1959 book "JAZZ" seems to be very rare, and tends to go rather expensively on eBay if a copy ever comes up. So for those who'd like to enjoy the pics from this tour in a real book, try to get hold of Ed van der Elsken's book "JAZZ 1955 - 1959 - 1961" published in 1988 in Japan, then in 1991 in the Netherlands by Fragment Uitgiverij and in 1992 by Nieswand Verlag in Germany. A GREAT book featuring not only more pics form this Hampton tour but also a LOT of other great jazz pictures from that era. In fact (according to the accompanying text) this book is an expanded version of the original book that Durium shows in his blog.

Trying to find some rational explanation to some aspects mentioned here: No doubt a great many black American jazzmen moved to Europe after 1945 or in the 50s to escape racial problems back in the States. Many of these had found they were held in great awe and respected as artists wherever they went in jazz circles in Europe, i.e. among promoters, journalists, fans, club owners, etc. Quite different from what many of them probably had experienced back home in everyday life where racial barriers must have been more prominent even outside the South, even in their work as musicians. In Europe (France, Denmark, Sweden, Germany, Switzerland, the Netherlands, etc.), on the other had, they were regarded as artists and stars (and some sort of "Crow Jim" attitude prevalent among certain fans certainly helped too) and were usually treated with great respect. However, this concerned the fields of everyday life these musicians usually moved within. No doubt less friendly feelings may have existed elsewhere in European society, or maybe indifference or ignorance, but these musicans were not really exposed to it in everyday life so may not usually have perceived it as such. And this ignorance or inability to distinguish between somebody needing insulin injections and some junkie trying to get a fix (and after all a lot of musicians were junkies indeed so this picture may have been somewhat difficult to avoid by those who otherwise did not get into touch with jazz but just had read about these things in the gossip press) may have led to what happened in Eric Dolphy's case. Inexcusable in the case of a doctor, but do we know all the details of the actual circumstances?

Wasn't there a rather detailed thread on her not all that long ago here on this forum (on the occasion of her passing, I think)?

That particular records reminds me of something odd I've been wondering about for a long time: A few years ago I bought this record along with other Basie LP's in one single lot from a private seller, and this K.C.7 item came in a mint IMPULSE gatefold cover (U.S. pressing); however, the record inside was on the MCA "rainbow" label (with light blue background) and stated both the MCA AND the Impulse record No. on the label. Did somebody replace a (maybe worn) original record with a more recent pressing or were there pressing runs that combined the older original cover and more recent vinyls/labels (maybe because there was an overstock of covers to be used up)? Anybody got an idea?

To prevent others from (maybe) getting lost, better point out that the original label of this was IMPULSE and that this is the "new" version" of The Kansas City Seven (and not to be confused with the early 40s lineup including Lester young that recorded for Keynote). I agree with all your other special recommendations (though my 60 or so Basie LP's - plus some CD's - place a bit more emphasis on the 30s and 40s, but I also appreciate the Verve and Roulette era very much - plus certain Pablos).

Aren't we all? At least in the eyes of the "music-consuming average masses"? :D Yeah, and I'll hafta get that one too!

Saw this advance info a couple of months ago. Any news on when this book will finally be available and at what price? That site doesn't seen to be updated too often in this respect.

MG, you're talking about the "Real Crazy" studio sessions issued on Vogue or about the live concert recordings from the European tour (September, 1953) issued on IAJRC LP 31 as well as on various CD's on the Stash and Natasha labels?

Sure I did see those RELIC comps. There must have been some 200 LP's of them or so. They were all over the place in the 80s and early to mid-90s at all the specialist record dealers' stalls at REAL rock'n'roll concerts everywhere. The vinyl is OOP but should be available secondhand here and there, and I think similar compilations are now avilable on CD in frightening quantities anyway. Only bought a sampling of that Doo-Wop stuff myself over the years, though (mostly black groups). It's nice to listen to for a time but can get repetitive in the long run. The Italo doo-wop groups can get a bit of a drag too, and I admit I can pretty well do without the girl group and Phil Spector items.