Free For All

I mean F# MA7 #1!

Wasn't there a Mr. Mxlpzytk or something like that who was one of Superman's enemies? If I remember you had to get him to say his name backwards and then he'd disappear. Cat played the shit out of a G7 #9 though!

Late night theory jam! Got to love it!

That is weird, Wheel! Would that be the "Irony-an" mode?

That ties in with what I said a few posts back about the half-dim. chord. Those cats from that era originally thought of it as an inversion (minor chord w/6th in the bass).

Don't assume anything, Joe. I'm no expert at this stuff. I'm always looking for ways to explain things that I've always accepted because "that's the way it is". I find myself in situations (usually when teaching) when some wise-ass kid (god bless'em) starts asking "why?" and I have to logically explain something so it makes sense. I like when that happens because it leads me to figure out things for myself, too. That's what I like about teaching. So I'm contemplating your post- your point about the "double 9th" is well taken. I think it's interesting to compare the two scales derived from the ascending melodic minor- the lydian dominant and the diminished whole tone. The former makes more sense as a scale in the traditional sense of scale degrees- G (1) A (2) B (3) C# (4) D (5) E (6) F (7). But when you move to the other mode, the 9th "splits" into #9/b9 but the 5th and 6th "merge" to create the #5. You can't really assign the scale degrees as readily to the resulting scale- G Ab Bb B C# D# F G. The tonic triad of this scale is an augmented triad, right (G B D#)? There are two "nines" but one of the scale degrees 4-5-6 is omitted, right? Is C# a sharp four or flat five? Is D# a sharp five or flat six? I know, don't worry about it if it sounds good. Maybe that's good advice. :rsmile: My brain hurts now. Maybe Sangrey or one of the other "theory heads" will weigh in here with their take on this.

Too hard to choose. They're all great. Ever see "Sophie's Choice"?

The half-dimished chord was originally taught (in the bop era) as a minor sixth chord. It's just a matter of respelling the same group of notes. So E-G-Bb-D (E half dim.) was learned as G-Bb-D-E (G minor sixth). Eventually it became commonly known as E half-dim. I heard both Dizzy and Jimmy Heath describe this. Back in those days information was passed on by ear, mostly. Formal training has accelerated the assimilation of jazz harmony, or at least made it more readily available. The problem is that students these days acquire a harmonic vocabulary but often have little to say other than running chord scales and such. It's like owning a Porsche but not knowing how to drive.The lesson needs to be that this harmonic knowledge is but a means to an end, not an end in itself. That's a BIG problem with jazz education, IMHO.

Gil is my favorite of the four, but as an arranger. I don't really think of him as a composer as much. He was such a great arranger, though, he really "re-composed" many tunes. Best composer of the bunch? I'd vote for Tadd Dameron. I've been playing some of his tunes lately, and they're really well structured and fun, and have held up well through the years. Phil Kelly! What do you think? There should be two polls, really. It's too broad a topic to be able to provide sufficient choices and not leave many names out.

Someone remind me- didn't he have some sort of physical affliction? Was it some sort of spinal problem? I'm too lazy to look it up. Cat sure played his ass of though!

.....the fundamental things apply....as time goes by......

It's just a matter of if you're going to call the note an A# or Bb. "Technically" it would be spelled as an A# (sharp nine) because the chord/scale can only have one type of B (third) in it. Very often it is spelled enharmonically (Bb) to create ease in reading. But I think the overwhelming majority would call that chord a sharp nine. Sorry I was late to this party!

One thing to remember (assuming these are dominant chords) is if there is an altered 9th (either sharp or flat) the chord scale will be either the diminished or diminished/whole tone (super locrian). If there's an unaltered (natural) 9th the chord scale will be either the mixolydian or the lydian/dominant. I've never seen an altered 9th and natural 9th co-existing in the same dominant chord. Here's my question- does the lydian/dominant have a "modal" name like the super locrian does? I can't remember- I learned them as diminshed/whole tone and lydian/dominant. Very useful scales, BTW.

I just received the Roach in the mail a couple of days ago. Excellent stuff- I had some of it on disc already, but there's enough obscure material to make it well worthwhile! Some great KD and especially some great Booker Little. What a crime he left us so soon. I highly recommend this set!

Have to agree with this. I've never been a fan of the soprano sax, no matter who the player of it is. I've always thought Branford was good on the soprano. And Tim Ries. I think the players who have had classical training on soprano and learned to play it in tune with a good sound do more for me. And then there's Dave Liebman, who gets that really primal "fire in the pet shop" sound- he seems to defy all the "rules". I expect people here either love him or hate him.

Now's THERE'S a question you don't hear everyday! Scott Robinson (NYC saxophonist) plays Theramin. Maria Schneider used it on one of her recordings, albeit more for a siren-like sound than in any melodic context. I've heard some old recordings of Theramin with some really amazing players. When you can learn to control the pitch it has an eerie vocal quality. I don't hear anyone playing "Donna Lee" on it, though.

Hey dude, if I remember the "stage band" days correctly the saxes (or trumpets for that matter) weren't exactly setting the world on fire! Unless you're talking about getting whacked in the back of the head by an errant slide or sprayed by a leaky one. You don't think that happened by accident, do you?

I agree. Unfortunately, it's also a very difficult instrument to play well so there are fewer good trombonists than there are good players of saxophone, trumpet etc. Coordinating tongue (articulation) and slide is the main challenge for most players Like any instrument, in the wrong hands it can sound pretty bad. This really returns to something I brought up on another thread- the two most important elements (to me) of playing jazz are SOUND and TIME. The trombone players I DON'T like have issues in one or both of these areas- uncontrolled sound and/or sloppy technique which makes the instrument sound cumbersome. Nothing else matters (melody, rhythm, harmony) if SOUND and TIME are not happening. They are fundamental elements of playing upon which all other things depend, IMHO. Count me in as someone who hates bad trombone as much or more than anyone here! For the record, I don't mean to come off as being hypersensitive or defensive about this- it's just that I have to deal with this negative generalization frequently enough that I think it's worth discussing. And I didn't mean to criticize you personally, Conn. You just brought up something (with innocent intentions I'm sure) that I feel particularly passionate about.

I'm not trying to be disrespectful of anyone's opinion. I'm just playing devil's advocate and posting what I feel are exceptions to these generalizations. I understand that many of these responses are offered with a sense of humor, but I've been on the receiving end of "instrument prejudice" enough times that I feel strongly about this subject. Now I must go practice.

Bad context for the instrument (I don't really like those Ray Draper sides either). As a solo instrument in a Dirty Dozen-type context it works quite well, and there are some awesome players in those bands.

There's a guy named Charlie Pillow in NYC that plays the shit out of the oboe.

Thank you for that qualification, BeBop. I'm a trombonist and have been for a long time. I've endured hearing the constant generalization that "trombone sucks", and while I laugh at the jokes with everyone else, it gets a little tiresome after a while. The premise of this thread is faulty, IMHO. It's the PLAYERS, not the INSTRUMENTS. I hate getting hit in the head with a hammer, but I don't hate all hammers! I DON'T like soprano sax when someone doesn't play it well. I DO like it when it's in able hands. Likewise with the other instruments mentioned. As far as the synth, the problem is that the sounds become dated quickly. I certainly respect everyone's opinion, and I understand that we all have likes and dislikes, but to generalize and dismiss an instrument because of a bad player is a big mistake. I would like anyone who comes to one of my performances to do so with an open mind and not say "Shit, there's a trombone, let's get out of here." I have had people come to hear me play and come up afterwards and say "I never liked the trombone, but I like the way you play". I feel good if I can convert a non-believer. And I offer that last comment with honest humility, but I think it does help prove my point. Being narrow-minded is NOT the most desirable quality for a jazz fan, IMHO.

Zoot, Bix, Slide and Buckshot LeFonque.

........my heart on my sleeve. And I always pay the price for that.

I saw "Hardbop" and thought "could it be?" until I realized he was talking about an ORGAN recording and then I knew it definitely wasn't our old friend. Welcome to the board, Hardbopjazz!