Rabshakeh

I haven't listened to Riot since I upgraded my system. That's something to look forward to tomorrow.

I've spent much of this afternoon trying to track down the records in this thread and piece it all together. Some of these records are... obscure. Even Discogs is struggling. Which in itself is a really tribute to the knowledge of some of the people on this board.

Ha ha ha. Indeed!

I download on my phone and then shrink to 10% with an app called Lightroom.

An incredible post. Thank you!

Are there particular soundtracks for which they are known?

For my part that’s also what I’m also looking forward to most, plus the Germans. I know nothing about that scene except for that Mangelsdorff was a leading player, before his vanguard heel turn.

No no. This is the point. And I think there probably was a reaction.

Gosh. Getting stuck in ahead of the inevitable next lockdown?

Same for me. But it was Scotland and whisky. Anyway, the marriage more or less survived.

Thanks. That's really interesting. As I mentioned in the new Jazz Modernism Outside the Americas thread, I've been surprised at the extent to which even now the historians' version of European jazz really is just the Avant Garde. It's always interesting to hear the other side of the story.

Ha ha! As a European (London varietal) I had in mind a quite different set of images of European jazz in the 50s: drizzle, chips, and fantasies of "America" and everything it was supposed to represent, which I'm pretty sure was a feature across the European scenes (maybe less drizzle in Italy).

It's an interesting topic. The story of how a country was built.

Do you have any examples? I have an never ending appetite for long dead jazz polemics.

The idea for this thread comes from the discussions that we have been having recently in relation to British jazz, as a result of the Decca reissue series, the release of the new Modern Jazz: Britain comp, and the recent discussions surrounding Simon Spillett's excellent blog and the Jazz Britannia series. Plus the interesting recollections of some of the members based in Europe about the scenes there in past decades. It seems to me that there is very little coverage of the modernist/progressive jazz scenes that blossomed outside of America in the years prior to 1969/70. (By "modernist" and "progressive" jazz, I mean jazz that sought to respond to the musics of Charlie Parker, Sonny Rollins, Miles Davis and mid-period John Coltrane, i.e., roughly bebop, cool, hard bop and post bop in US terms (I understand that in England at least the terms used were "modernist" or "progressive").) The fact is that most of what we regard as the major "jazz hubs" outside of the States (i.e., France, the UK, Japan, Netherlands, Germany, Sweden, to name a few (for the purposes of this thread let's ignore South America, South Africa, West African and the Caribbean, which had their own unique scenes too, but of a quite different type)) had domestic jazz scenes that were domestically popular, often in competition with some more traditionalist dancehall type jazz scene. Looking back at the UK scene (and I wasn't there, so this is second hand) it seems striking the extent to which these scenes developed in isolation and in a world of (from today's perspective) extreme information scarcity. Despite this, they had their own hierarchies of local heroes (e.g. Tubby Hayes or pre-vanguard Albert Mangelsdorff) and their own "classic" albums. Not all of this stuff was strictly competitive, and, for the most part, these scenes have not survived to make it into the history books. Most histories of jazz, to the extent that they cover the European and East Asian scenes at all, start in the late 60s, at precisely the point that international touring opened up, and the more distinctive local Avant Garde and Fusion scenes began to grow. The result of this neglect is that someone from England (to take the example that I know best) is far more likely to hear about Derek Bailey, Soft Machine or Evan Parker than Stan Tracey, Ronnie Scott (other than as a club owner) or Don Rendell, who remain largely unaccessible and whose albums are unknown to anyone who wasn't there at the time. The fact is, however, that these pre-avant garde/fusion "modernist" scenes that existed in Europe and East Asia between 1945 and 1969 were fruitful and did produce interesting artists and good records. Given the concentration of knowledge and expertise on this board, I would be interested to hear from forum members with their views on these local scenes; any memories that people have of them; and favourite artists. Most importantly, what are your favourite or recommended records from Europe or East Asia between 1945 and 1969? Famous or unjustly buried by time.

He he he. Thanks!

I actually don't know his music. Other than Pannonian Flower, is there anything you particularly recommend of his or anything by the RAU?

Sonny Simmons - Burning Spirits

James Blood Ulmer's Tales of Captain Black Now onto: Triangular by the Ralph Peterson Trio. Always impressed by anyone who can rock a leather jacket / trousers / hat combination. Having finished that, I have moved on to George Russell's 1960 Stratusphunk. I've never understood why George Russell has such a low profile comparative to his recordings. The trombone arrangements on this are superb.

Buddy Collette - Man of Many Parts (Contemporary, 1957) First time listening to this one, and I really love it. The sax is beautiful but the flute is really something.

it was only a bit of emotional engagement. Promise.

What's it like?

I enjoyed the first two a lot as well. I could have done with a little more Blue Notes and a little less Cream, but I am pleased that they included stuff like the SME at all. I think the third is not available, but I read somewhere that it covered Courtney Pine etc. I haven’t seen that one. It expect that it would have had quite a different feel, since by then England was wide open to US influence. The BBC used to have a habit of making music programmes with names like ‘Pub Rock Britannia’, and I think that the other trad episode just happened to have an accidentally similar sounding name. I would be interested to know what forum members in other comparable foreign jazz “hubs” like Sweden or Germany or Japan make of the programme. Presumably the same dynamics of information scarcity and then desperate games of catch up would have played out there too in the 40s to mid 70s.

I’m enjoying this recent release by John Butcher and Tony Buck. Recommended if you fancy some free improv with a bit of emotional engagement in your life.

Kurt Rosenwinkel - Heartcore (Verve, 2003)