Rabshakeh

It was a good reissue.

Currently on CD 2 of Ornette's In All Languages (the Prime Time one), having finished the first Original Quartet CD.

Absolutely!

From reading backwards, it seems like this was a concern right through to the mid-sixties, and was itself one of the reasons for the musicians' embrace of fusion, before it became a reason for the embrace of neo-traditionalism. I have no idea whether any of these developments actually succeeded in recapturing the imagination of their intended audience though.

I'm generally just glad those sorts of polemics are past. Whilst some of the various attitudes linger, the jazz world seems in the last ten years to have finally worked its way through those early 80s talking points. Certainly the new crop of musicians and whoever is backing them seem to be prepared to get more interesting work out there to the audiences. From my perspective, the one task that is left for the present (at least as regards the Young Lions' legacy) is the re-evaluation and promotion of the music of the losers to the Young Lions trend. The discussion on and media representation of jazz in the 80s and 90s (including informal media, like blogs) still leans heavily on the value or lack thereof of Marsalis's music. There is occasional reference to those artists from a few limited sets that, for whatever reason, proved categorisable and so saleable in spite of the marketing onslaught (e.g., Zorn & Co, Metheny, M Base, Vision Fest, Jaco), but that's basically it. The records made by non-mainstream or even perfectly mainstream artists who fell on the wrong side of the polemics are still not re-issued or explored and remain largely unavailable or a matter of insider knowledge (I'm thinking of Lester Bowie solo, Thomas Chapin, Geri Allen, 80s / early 90s Braxton, etc.). I would love to see an upspring of interest in rediscovering and promoting the back catalogues of such artists, similar to the recent re-evaluations of other "jazz genres", labels or periods like Black Jazz, Blue Note's "rare groove" or "outside" periods, Strata-East/"spiritual jazz" or, long before them, Blue Note's late 60s post-bop catalogue. Until then, the musicians on the wrong side of the Young Lion marketing campaign are still just getting passed over by anyone who wasn't there at the time. It is as much of a dead zone for the Average Intelligent Hip Young Jazz Consumer as soul jazz or 70s indie label bop, which we talk about a lot on this board. With jazz doing quite well in sales terms (relatively) and getting more column inches than I ever remember, it feels like now would be a good time for this to happen. All that said, I would still love it if there were a book that compiled the main articles, speeches and liner notes in each installment of the "Jazz Wars". It's one of the subjects that remains most discussed, but the actual statements comprising the subject were by their nature ephemeral. I hate speaking from hearsay.

I may have skipped over it, but I hadn't seen any of his records so far. Very good artist, but not my favourite, I guess, but I think that if this were a different board, he would be extremely prominent. The recent Jazz Times polls, that were discussed in a different thread, were roughly 60% Metheny from the 80s onwards. Or at least they seemed liked that.

Funny / surprising how little Pat Metheny there is in this thread...

I guess that the X factor is getting the public to believe it, though. Music history is full of failed marketing campaigns and squandered budgets. For some reason the audience in the early 80s really was receptive and was willing to be sold a story of acoustic swinging jazz messiahs redeeming jazz from the pit of fusion and avant garde. The fact that it was the same major labels, same artists (sometimes), same execs (George Butler etc.) behind it all troubled noone. Mainstream jazz audiences in the '80s wanted tradition and quality, I suppose. Or at least, they wanted something that looked like tradition and quality. I think it's probably worth remembering though that those same labels/execs had just (I think) had their fingers singed on a first attempt, with records like Lenox Avenue Breakdown etc. All Columbia's marketing didn't shift that record, even though I suspect most members of this board would regard that album as rather heavier in both tradition and quality than anything in the catalogue of the Brothers Marsalisov.

I wasn't really around at the time (too busy learning to walk / chew / etc.), but wasn't a lot of the rhetoric weirdly anti-corporate, rather than the other way around? For example, the quotations from the link in Dub Modal's post above emphasise how Really Real Jazz (TM 1965: Columbia) was artistic and uncommercial, whereas what the Second Quintet sidemen had being doing in the intervening period was selling out. Both came out on Warner / Columbia etc. Quite how Crossings was meant to be "commercial" but J Mood was "authentic" escapes me. But that's called marketing, I guess.

Some great stuff posted in the last 6 hours. I know this is a thread that mostly goes on in the background, but I still get a lot out of it. There's always new records to listen to or old friends to revisit.

That's a good one.

I was going to put that one down! But I had a failure of will.

I meant more the endless controversy, although I am a bit surprised at how few of those records have been mentioned too. I don't think they're that bad, although Guy Berger's "astro-turfy and phony" is a good phrase which I intend to adopt myself going ahead. Okay, here are my favourite jazz records of the 80s, in rough chronological order. Some may have already been mentioned above. Jack deJohnette - Special Edition Arthur Blythe - Illusions Fred Anderson - The Milwaukee Tapes, Vol. 1 Derek Bailey, John Zorn and George Lewis - Yankees Milcho Leviev - Blues for the Fishermen Andrew Hill - Strange Serenade Julius Hemphill - Flat Out Jump Suite Pharaoh Sanders - Journey to the One David Murray - Ming Derek Bailey - Aida Muhal Richard Abrams - Mama and Daddy World Saxophone Quartet - Steppin' Grover Washington Jr - Winelight Roscoe Mitchell and the Sound Ensemble - Snurdy McGurdy and her Dancing Shoes James Newton - Axum Chico Freeman - The Outside Within Phil Woods/Lew Tabackin - Phil Woods/Lew Tabackin Steve Lacy - N.Y. Capers & Quirks Chick Corea - Three Quartets Old and New Dreams - Playing Vinny Golia - The Gift of Fury Anthony Braxton - Six Compositions: Quartet Bill Dixon - November 1981 Mal Waldron and Steve Lacy - Live at Dreher Paris 1981 Keith Tippett - Mujician Lester Bowie - The Great Pretender Griot Galaxy - Kins Leo Cuyper - Heavy Days Are Here Again John Carter - Dauwhe Bob Moses - When Elephants Dream of Music Ethnic Heritage Ensemble - Impressions World Saxophone Quartet - Revue Roswell Rudd, Steve Lacy, Misha Mengelberg, Kent Carter and Han Bennink - Regeneration Billy Bang - Outline No. 12 George Adams Don Pullen Quartet - City Gates Joe McPhee Po Music - Oleo Kaoru Abe - Mort a Credit Kenny Baron Trio - Green Chimneys Steve Lacy Seven - Cliches Harrison/Blanchard - New York Second Line Lee Konitz and Martial Solal - Star Eyes, Hamburg 1983 Sun Ra - A Fireside Chat With Lucifer Jaco Pastorius - Invitation Trovesi Damiani Quintet - Roccellanea Khan Jamal Quartet - Dark Warrior Vienna Art Orchestra - The Minimalism of Eric Satie New Phil Woods Quintet - Integrity Fred Anderson - The Missing Link Peter Brotzmann - 14 Love Poems Paul Motian - The Story of Maryam Cecil Taylor - Winged Serpents (Sliding Quadrants) Grupo Niche - No Hay Quinto Malo Nate Morgan - Retribution, Reparation Position Alpha - The Great Sound of Sound Ray Anderson - Right Down Your Alley Dave Holland - Seeds of Time Lester Bowie's Brass Fantasy - I Only Have Eyes for You John Hicks - Inc. 1 Anthony Braxton - Quartet (Coventry) 1985 Irene Schweizer - The Storming of the Winter Palace James Newton - The African Flower Joe Henderson - State of the Tenor John Carter - Castles of Ghana Last Exit - Last Exit Ran Blake Quartet - The Short Life of Barbara Monk Steve Lacy - Morning Joy Andrew Hill Trio and Quartet - Shades Tim Berne - Fulton Street Maul Irene Schweizer - Live at Taktlos Misha Mengelberg, Steve Lacy, George Lewis, Ernst Reijseger, Han Bennink - Dutch Masters Mal Waldron and Steve Lacy - Sempre Amore Edward Vesala - Lumi Out of the Blue - Live at Mount Fuji Charlie Haden / Paul Motian feat. Geri Allen - Etudes David Torn, Time Berne and Ches Smith - Cloud about Mercury Michael Brecker - Michael Brecker Charles Brackeen Quartet - Worshippers Come Nigh Irene Schweizer & Gunter Sommer - Irene Schweizer & Gunter Sommer John Zorn, George Lewis and Bill Frissell - News for Lulu Evan Parker - The Snake Decides Jerome Cooper Quintet - Outer and Interactions Gonzalo Rubalcabra - Mi Gran Pasion Derek Bailey and Cyro Baptista - CYRO Mal Waldron and Jim Pepper - Art of the Duo Muhal Richard Abrams - The Hearinga Suite Gary Thomas & Seventh Quadrant - Code Violations John Butcher, Phil Durrant, Paul Lovens, Radu Malfatti, John Russell - News from the Shed Henry Threadgill Sextet - Rag, Bush and All Paul Bley Trio - BeBopBeBopBeBopBeBop

I was impressed at how long the thread has gone before anyone even mentioned them.

Thumbs up from me for the recent Voluptuaries record on Leo by Brandon Seabrook and Simon Nabatov. It's a really nice one if you fancy something free improv-ish, but with a bit of heart. Nul points for the font choice on the album cover though! It's on Bandcamp with some tracks available for streaming.

Thanks!

Good reminder. I'm overdue revisiting that one.

I hadn't heard of the Italian Instabile Orchestra at all. Looks like a great place to start.

Thanks!

Yep! Likewise.

Currently listening to this one: From G To G (Soulnote, 1992) by the Gianluigi Trovesi Octet. It easily stands up to the best records by Threadgill's or Murray's octets (no disrespect to those great groups - I'm using them as a marker for quality). As always, I'm struck by how (comparatively) under-explored and under-promoted the Italian scene is. I seem to have a thousand Brötzmann records and yet I am hearing this utter gem for the first time today. Some nice recommendations in the above thread, but if anyone has any more albums they want to suggest to some receptive ears, please let me know.

I can't think of another artist who keeps you guessing what's coming next quite like Harris does.

Thanks Hutch! I saw your post earlier and thought it was worth checking.

There've been a couple mentions of Eddie Harris albums and sideman dates in the '80s popping up recently. It hadn't occured to me that he kept recording that late. Are any of them really worth tracking down? Does he switch to standard tenor or is he still using effects?

Thanks Steve! I love the older RED trio records with some of the collaborators here and was sizing this one up. I'll take the plunge.