Tom Storer

It isn't the fact that you criticize her that irked me, Chris, it's the particularly snide and insistent way you do so, to the extent that when you put her down quite contemptuously and someone else says "well, I happen to think she's great," you don't just leave it at that but come in with another put-down in response, like clockwork. I'm sure there are plenty of musicians whose work you don't much like, but only Wynton and Betty Carter are certain-sure to attract your condemnation damn near every time they're mentioned, or so it seems. That's what led me to speculate about a personal thing--not that you criticize her, but the regularity and the especially hostile tone you use. It wasn't an argument, it was a reaction to what I perceive as an unfortunate attitude on your part--that attitude not being the fact that you don't like Betty Carter's singing (you're not the only one on this thread), but the strangely nasty intensity that I believe I detect. The way I see it, you don't like her and that's fine with me, but I do like her and you can't accept that without getting in further digs at her. But this conversation is fruitless and I will now bow out.

I guess it's official this is John Zorn and co. doing one of those homage-to-bebop things. I confess to being startled, since I can't stand Zorn's usual output, and I like this. Geez, leave a guy's prejudices alone, would ya?

Our opinions differ. Incidentally, have you listened to her recordings of the long list of songs I listed above? Maybe you could give some chapter and verse examples of her "grotesqueness" so at least I'd know precisely what rubs you the wrong way. Chris, you slam Betty Carter so hard every single chance you get that I wonder if you and she didn't have some sort of conflict in real life. We know you can't stand her music, because you said so earlier in the thread, and not for the first time; some of us loved it, so maybe we can say so without getting a waspish comment every time we do. Let me pre-empt your next post by declaring that I absolutely accept your God-given right to express your opinion.

Count me in the pro-Betty camp all the way. Her point of view was that she didn't have the pipes of a Sarah Vaughan or an Ella Fitzgerald, but she did have an unusual amount of originality, so she went all the way into her own concept of arranging songs for jazz vocals. As far as I'm concerned, her concept was absolutely brilliant. I think Carter and Sheila Jordan were the last great originals in the mainstream jazz vocal tradition. Maybe throw in Abbey Lincoln, too. Whether you like Carter's stuff or not, nobody approached jazz vocals like she did. If she had had a stronger voice and vocal technique, she could have ruled the world. As it was, there are things about her voice and delivery that are like nails on a blackboard to many. There was a nasal and breathy quality about her singing, and, especially in the later years of her career, her pitch could be problematic. For me, that was more than made up for by her imagination, swing and emotional commitment. And those arrangements were flat-out great. Some examples: From "Introducing Betty Carter": "Look No Further," "My Favorite Things," "Spring Can Really Hang You Up The Most," "Something Big" From "Finally": all three medleys ("Seems Like Old Times/I Remember You/Remember," "Body and Soul/Heart and Soul," "I Didn't Know What Time It Was/All The Things You Are/I Could Write A Book"); the bass-voice duo on "Blue Moon"; "All Through The Day" From "'Round Midnight": "My Shining Hour," "By The Bend In The River," "Surrey With The Fringe On Top" From "Now It's My Turn": "Music, Maestro, Please/Swing, Brother, Swing," "I Was Telling Him About You," "Wagon Wheels," "Making Dreams Come True," "Just Friends/Star Eyes" From "The Betty Carter Album": "What Is It?," "We Tried," "Sister Candy," "Tight," "Sounds," From "The Audience": "I Think I Got It Now," "Everything I Have Is Yours," "Trolley Song," "Carribean Sun," "I'll Buy You A Star" From "Look What I Got": "That Sunday, That Summer," "The Man I Love," "Imagination," "Make It Last," "The Good Life" From "Whatever Happened To Love": "What A Little Moonlight Can Do" From "It's Not About The Melody": "Stay As Sweet As You Are," "When It's Sleepy Time Down South," "Dip Bag," "You're Mine, You" That's a hell of a legacy. There are plenty of singers who sing the songs straight and emote effectively, but precious few who have pushed the envelope like Carter did. The abstract quality of her interpretations put off many mainstream fans who wanted to hear the songs sung in a traditional narrative way. Another thing to note is that Carter didn't record well. Live, her voice had vibrancy and color that for some reason was virtually always flattened and thinned on recordings. She toured constantly and had her share of bad nights, when her voice was husky and lacking flexibility, but even then she pushed her trio hard; and when she was on--which, up through the end of the 80's anyway, was very often, and I know because I saw her many times--she was a consummate performer and unceasingly inventive. Those trios of hers swung like crazy, you would be in a sweat by the time the night was over. Betty was one of the greatest jazz singers ever.

Coming in late on this one, haven't read the rest... Here are my guesses. Mostly comments, actually - I'm in the dark for just about all of it. There's definitely a common sound at work. Strong bass, strong drums and/or percussion, medium-tempo, big arrangements of big themes, not too much leeway at the individual level. For me this whole collection evokes movie soundtracks. As a sequence this has a lot of continuity. I think what makes movie themes work, or other songs sound like movie themes, is a kind of obviousness. Not necessarily in a bad way, but with tunes and chords and structures that are right there, big and fat in front of you so you can't miss the point. That and, here at least, they rarely stray from a comfortable mid-tempo. On the one hand that's what makes this blindfold probably the most unified, the most like an album in that sense, and also--sorry, Golden Arm--allows my interest to flag from time to time. 1. Nelson Riddle remixed by Bill Laswell? One part of me thinks, "What a jolly lark, I'll cheerfully bounce along with this!" Another part thinks, "This post-modernism is just *so* undergraduate. I wonder if this was ever touched by human hands, or was it wholly machine-assembled?" So those are my two simultaneous and contradictory reactions, and I won't even hazard a guess as to who prepared this digital artefact. Nonetheless, I enjoy it a lot! 2. Good sequencing! Somehow similar to number one in a kind of movie-theme way, with the big percussion, but played by real people. The arrangement nicely balances the strong, clear theme with a lot of stuff happening around the edges. No guess. 3. The theme sounds like something Mingus could have taken and set several horns to preaching and hollering with. Here it's a lot more antiseptic and leaves me hungry for something a bit more edgy. I like the alto sax. No guess. 4. I like this one! Nice arrangement, nice solos, bouncy. I'm sure I should recognize the soloists, but what else is new? No guess. 5. Phil Woods on alto? Just a guess. The band sound as a whole evokes Gerry Mulligan, but I'm not sure that's him on baritone. Nice but not all that exciting. 6. Jury's out. Some Ellingtonian touches, but nothing grabs me particularly about this one. 7. ALmost like a Dave Holland big band piece, what with the vibes and the strong bass and baritone. But I don't think it is. This is a good one. 8. Vibes and flute, dark. Sounds like a soundtrack to me. Kind of dull. 9. Percussion and alto sax. Old-fashioned sound à la Johnny Hodges. It may even be Hodges--I know there's an Ellington album with a lot of percussion, called "Jazz Party" I think--but he fools around with his sound more than I think Hodges would have. Sounds truncated at the end. 10. I know this one, so my lips are sealed. This recording artist's strong point, in my view, is an ability to assemble interesting and unexpected casts; the weak point is the composing and lyrics, which read like undergraduate poetry. 11. Not bad. The percussion is great. 12. The phrasing reminds me of Barney Wilen. Just a guess. 13. Is that an accordion ora keyboard pretending to be one? There can't be too many groups around with that instrumentation, and the alto sax sounds familiar, but I don't have a clue who this is. I like it pretty well, though. 14. Now there's a real squeeze-box. A nice, bluesy squeeze-box, too. I'd guess it's European. 15. Another one! Once again very nice. Good saxophonists, too. No idea who these folks are, but I'll be interested to find out. 16. Big movie theme sound. Atmospheric, catchy. Kind of dull, finally. 17. More movie stuff. The I'm-hip finger-snapping that comes in just past the two-minute mark just screams soundtrack. 18. I'm guessing this is from the Miles Davis soundtrack to "Ascenseur pour l'Echafaud", with Barney Wilen on tenor. 19. Sounds like modern guys playing the old stuff. I'll take a wild guess that it's off that recent Greg Osby album, "St. Louis Shoes," with Nicholas Payton, I think. 20. Very entertaining! Obviously singing is not the guy's main gig. But there's lots of personality in this one.

Pete's ability to forecast the future is nothing short of amazing. Here I am to kvell! All the suggestions are good. I'll add her most recent album, "Little Song" on High Note, from last year. It's with the Steve Kuhn trio with Tom Harrell playing on a few numbers, and--need I say it?--it's great. One of my favorites. You can just click right on over to Amazon, for instance, and order it. Hup hup! And yes, see her live if possible. In the last couple of years she's started to favor Paris and I've seen her a few times (next concert a month from today) and she's always wonderful.

I don't think Braxton claims to be a scholar or expert on social issues, he's just a feverish thinker of the mad-scientist variety and loves to talk about ideas. There's not much point in subjecting his lengthy, eager rambling to grim academic peer-review as if it were for intended for publication as an article in some weighty journal. It's no doubt a better approach to just read what he has to say and glean what insights might be available, as if you were sitting down together over a few drinks. I recall a mid-70's Braxton trio concert with Dave Holland and Barry Altschul in upstate New York. Braxton came out for a question-and-answer session after the concert and rather stunned everyone with mile-a-minute explanations of his detailed, idiosyncratic system of analysis, complete with vibrational-structures this and perception-dynamics that, and so forth. And to illustrate his talk he did sing some of his compositions, and long ones, too! I don't think many of us present had much of a clue what he was talking about, but it was interesting to try to puzzle out. And the music was fantastic!

I'd think it would be pretty difficult for them to predict -- the website says "Last Chance reflects our best estimate that the set will be sold out soon which can range anywhere from tomorrow to two months". Yes, but according to kulu se mama above, "mosaic leases most of the music that they reissue for a set time and/or number of sets." In other words, some sets may become unavailable on a given date, regardless of how many sets they've sold. They'd know that date even if they couldn't predict how fast the sets would sell. This reminds me to send Mosaic an email about this!

I ordered this set on amazon.co.uk on December 1, and the estimated delivery date kept getting pushed back and back. Now they've informed me they've given up trying to get it and cancelled my order. Oh, well. I'll just have to use that money on something else!

Now who's being shocking?? For a male jazz fan to associate the word "vagina" with "saxophone" would be more a question of love than hate, no? Personally, I don't see why the word is sleazy or shocking. I guess all these years in Europe have made me a blasé non-Puritan.

A fine collection, Randy, and many thanks! However, I maintain my low opinion of the Mal Waldron track. I was afraid it might be Waldron (a pianist I almost always don't like), but it seemed too awful even for him. ;-) But one ringer out of two CDs is pretty good!

Gosh! I was in attendance at that concert (my first concert in Paris, shortly after I moved here), but I haven't heard the album in years and I had completely forgotten that Wilson sang "Crucificado" at it! Wow! That must have been a GREAT concert to attend, Tom! Any memories to share? ubu Not too many, actually. It was standing room only. I got there at the last minute and ended up sitting on the steps in the aisles along with all the other latecomers. Mostly what I remember is the musicians massed on stage, the hot music belting out, and the eager enthusiasm of the crowd. There was a definite sense of this being an event. The band was wailing. I couldn't tell you who was in the band, though. Ah, memory... or its inevitable failure. I have the album on vinyl but haven't had a turntable in years. I'll have to pick up the CD.

Would that be one of those Japanese live ones? IMO her best version is on a Muse album with a trio led by Kenny Barron. Gosh! I was in attendance at that concert (my first concert in Paris, shortly after I moved here), but I haven't heard the album in years and I had completely forgotten that Wilson sang "Crucificado" at it!

Perhaps because it is both thunderous and sweet...

It's fascinating what these blindfolds reveal about how differently we all hear things. My least favorites turn out to be someone else's most favorites; things I think are delightful someone else will coldly dismiss. I read some people's guesses and think "Oh, come on, it couldn't possibly be that," and I'm sure others think the same when they read my guesses (and we're probably all wrong!). The more I listen to 2-11, the more I revise my initial reservations. What I heard as disjointed I'm now hearing as kind of funkily loose. And I'm sure I know those horn players from somewhere!

Well, I started the AAJ thread because I couldn't get in at all at the office today and the message said the domain didn't exist! I now find that from home all is well. I'll see tomorrow morning if I have the same problem at work. I think it's pretty cool that when we have problems with one jazz board, we can communicate about that on the others.

Just ordered the Blue Mitchell set. Is there any way of knowing when sets are going to time out? Shouldn't Mosaic make that clear on their website? I think I'll tell them that.

I'm going to see the Mehldau trio in March, first time. They're playing a small club here in Paris, which is charging one and a half times their normal cover, plus you have to mail in your check with a self-addressed stamped envelope to get your tickets mailed to you beforehand! What the hell, I figure the chance to see them in a little club is worth it. Let us know how you liked the Mehldau/Frisell double bill!

That looks like it, all right. This performance is certainly open to the criticism of being a loose jam, poorly miked, with the singer's voice kind of rough and unpolished. But I can overlook all that, it grabs me. The singing--not so much the solos.

Preliminary remarks: Randy, thanks for a superb collection! There are a couple of things that don't thrill me and one that really makes me flee in horror, but they're more than made up for by the excellent quality of the rest. I'll be looking to buy a few of the things represented here. As these blindfold tests keep coming, I find I care less and less about guessing who's who. I find them most valuable in letting me really listen and, if you follow me, listen to how I'm listening. If I don't like something and it turns out to be by someone I think I should like, or vice-versa, so be it. They're helping me learn to really trust my own tastes and rely on my ears more completely. When the music is as diverse and exciting as it is on this BFT, it's a wonderful activity. On to my stabs in the dark. I didn't go searching on the web and I haven't read anyone else's guesses--all this is my own immediate reactions, supported by memory. CD1 Track 1: An early bebop big band, and the presence of congas makes me think it's Dizzy's. We're off to a racing start! Track 2: More modern big band. I like it, but it's not something I'd play very often. No idea who it is. Track 3: Love this one! Because of the vibes I thought of the new Mulgrew Miller, but that's not a fit. The trumpet could be Terell Stafford; the sound of the vibes makes me think of Joe Locke. I suspect it's quite recent. Track 4: I like the vocal stuff. I dig the saxophonist's tone, but the solo doesn't kill me - the kind of thing that would be loads of fun live, but on record it wears on me. The drums and percussion end up being a little monotonous, IMHO. I wonder if this isn't a Leon Parker thing. Track 5: Randy, I'm trying to guess what attracted you to this appallingly monotonous performance, but I'm failing. For me this is the only ringer in the test. The pianist should be shot for the sequence that starts at 0:39 and goes on for half a minute or so. And it appears again at the end. I guess it's the melody! No prizes for composition here. Or improvisation either. Or swing. Or anything. Track 6: Whoa! I have this song by singer 1 on her own album, but was unaware of this beautiful version in collaboration with singer 2. There are some moments where they don't seem to be on quite the same page pitch-wise, but so what. I love them. I don't know where this one comes from - I'm sure they didn't make a whole album together. Track 7: I think this is a song called "Soft and Furry" - I know an Eddie Jefferson version. The saxophonist is extremely familiar, too, someone I've heard so many times, but the name won't come. Frustrating! Track 8: Sounds late 60's/early 70's but could be more recent emulators of that era. Again, very familiar, and I feel I should know it, but I don't. The more I listen to it the more I like it. The theme has an Ornettish quality. Beautiful playing all around, beautiful development of the piece and integration of improvising with the theme. Track 9: So classic it's almost Shakespearian. Appears to be a live version. This is just untoppable. Track 10: "Body and Soul," as performed by God in person. Well, I exaggerate. But not by much. Track 11: Beautiful! I was surprised when the vocal began; it sounded a little rough, but what passion, what an edge. I want this! I think it's Joe Lee Wilson, whom I listened to a little bit decades ago. Could be from one of those records he made in the loft-jazz years when he was part of that Studio Rivbea, Ali's Alley crowd. Or it could be more recent: I think he lives in Europe now, since he shows up around Paris occasionally even now. If this is he, I'll definitely make it a point to see him the next time he's around. CD2: Track 1: I like the brooding, bottom-heavy presence of this one. Something proud and Spanish about it too. No idea who it is. Track 2: Rudy Vallee! Randy, you've got some great singers on this blindfold test! Actually, this isn't Rudy Vallee, although it's a Rudy Vallee song. I believe the leader of this record was "The Audience." Track 3: More singers! Excellent! This is killer stuff, so soulful! This is another one I have to have. Track 4: No idea what this is, but to my ears it harks back to some of the more cerebral, mid-to-late 60's Blue Note things: alert, nervous, dynamic, moving carefully, even deliberately, through the piece but with lots of energy and gesture on the surface. I could see Bobby Hutcherson doing this. It seems to fade before the end, or perhaps it's a Part 1. Track 5: Stanley Clarke? George Duke? Al Dimeola? Makes me think of the salad days of fusion. No longer my kind of thing. Track 6: Still not my kind of thing. Sounds kind of clumsy to me, plodding. Don't like that bass sound. The soloists never really build up any steam. Track 7: I thought the flute solo would never end. This would probably have been cool to see live, but I find it pretty dull on record. Track 8: I think this is Jarrett with the American quartet (Redman/Haden/Motian), plus himself overdubbed on soprano, and a percussionist. I used to listen to his stuff all the time back then, but I'm not sure what album this would have been on. Track 9: Know the tune but can't name it. I think I may have this, but for the life of me I can't place it right now. Impressive for its sheer athleticism, but this kind of fast and furious playing doesn't do it for me the way it once did. It makes me tired (unlike track 1 of CD1 of this blindfold test, equally athletic and considerably older). Track 10: A bit of a respite after the last one. Talk about a contrast. Saxophone and electronics, with an ECM kind of sound. I'll guess John Surman. The ideas seem kind of obvious--"I'll play here and then it'll all echo and repeat." BWTFDIK? Track 11: "Exactly Like You," don't know who's playing although yet again it rings lots of bells. Like many of the things on this blindfold, with repeated listenings I like it more and more. My only quibble is with the rhythm section, which sounds curiously disjointed. The bass guitar doesn't seem to be feeling the same rhythms as the other guys.

That's pretty funny. Dexter Gordon used to introduce it as "Les Jours du Vin Rosé."

Stan Getz - can get a nice poker game going all by himself, no need for anyone else (cf. Zoot Sims' famous comment, "Stan's a great bunch of guys").

Thanks for your illuminating comments and the blindfold test in general, John. I haven't changed my mind about #9 and #11, but kudos to that Sangrey guy for #5. I mean, playing that well is great, and recording that playing is even better, but being selected for an Organissimo blindfold test--now that's prestige!

I recall reading that Montgomery was Martino's idol and they used to get together and jam when Martino was young. Another story a guitarist friend told me: apparently when George Benson came to New York intent on making it as a jazz instrumentalist (without the singing part), he went around to the clubs to check out the competition. Time after time he heard guitar players of whom he thought, "OK, he's doing some stuff I don't - but I can cop that. No problem." He was feeling confident. Then he heard Martino, and that's when he got scared.

After my post wondering about Michael Pedicin, the excellent and previously unknown to me tenor player I saw Monday night with Pat Martino, I looked for a Pat Martino thread and find that he's hardly been talked about at all here. I'm not a guitaroholic by any means, but Martino is one of my guitar heroes. His mid-70's albums "Consciousness" and "Impressions" blew me away, and I liked his collaboration with Gil Goldstein later in the decade; but then he had his stroke, lost his memory, and spent a decade or so learning to play the guitar all over again. I hadn't listened to much of the "new" Pat Martino but jumped at the chance to see him live, as I had never seen him play before. Lo and behold, the "new" Pat Martino is the old Pat Martino - in other words, simply amazing. With his current band he's playing in much the same style as he did 25 years ago - fiercely swinging soloing in a modern bop or modal context, very lyrical even with his staccato delivery and a sound that is dark in tone but bright in the clarity of his phrasing. His drive and his rigorous concentration give the music a powerful momentum, and his improvisations, which spin out cells of inventive variation seemingly effortlessly, are mesmerizing. OK, what the hell, I'll come right out and say it: I like him. Any other Martino fans in the house? Or, heaven forfend, detractors?