clifford_thornton

Totally agree. Nor do board members speak for one another, though we often try to, it seems!

I agree that we're way beyond the scope of the origninal thread, which was how he was so popular. Not sure if that's to be conflated with why, or why he was who he was. I got it as more related to marketing (both his own and his record companies), than the caliber of his playing, or group assembly, or ideas w/r/t music. Like it's been stated previously, conviction in the 'rightness' of one's art and the idea that it should be presented in a maximal way, combined with record company pockets, don't seem to quite get at how this phenomenon occurs. Hence my attempts to augment the topic with more left-field artists, but it seems that that isn't going to work here.

They can't go too far down the tubes, or else they won't be able to fund those reissues...

I hadn't read that comment before posting my little two cents, but I would suppose that is the main thing for his work in the 50s-60s. Funny, it does sorta sound business-like, when you put it in those terms (not a slag). Sometimes it's hard to separate astuteness from creative genius. But then, Miles is quite irreplicable, as Cecil, Mingus, the AEC in their prime, etc.

I was just playing the Ware card for reaction - I actually have little interest in his playing. Frank Lowe, yes. Kalaparusha, yes. Noah Howard, sometimes. I think what I was trying to get at was whether major label support and artistic conviction were, in theory, enough to drive somebody's work into public consciousness and interest. Obviously, neither are "enough." Edit: Clem: Not sure if we were on the same page on Ware in the first place - I'm well aware of his lengthy and well-distributed discography, though it seems the Columbia thing could've played out a bit differently than it actually did. Part of Miles' astuteness comes from being able to put together a band greater than the sum of its parts, and not relying wholly on his own approach as a soloist - even Lee Morgan or Woody Shaw couldn't, in my estimation, follow through in a similar trajectory. Like my comment in another thread, I really don't dig Noah Howard's playing all that much - solely on the whims of personal taste - but the guy could put together some great bands and wrote a number of wonderful compositions. Ditto on the bands operated by my namesake, though Thornton isn't always my first-choice soloist. Nevertheless, he put together some mean groups. So it seems on some level with Miles. Edit: Not to be confused with comparing Thornton and Howard to Miles on a grander scale.

My cat was named Silva, after the bass player-violinist-cellist-composer Alan Silva.

I have heard that Frank Wright died onstage of a heart attack while performing onstage in Wuppertal, 17 May 1990.

Prince Lasha on AAJ Enjoy! I think there is more Woody-related info there, but it would take some sifting.

Another two cents: I used to work at a liquor store as a college undergraduate, and strangely enough, we had a turntable in the store. I'd bring in records from time to time and listen while sitting behind the counter. One evening, I was listening to trumpeter Jacques Coursil's Black Suite, a very spare recording of somber, Bill Dixon-inspired music. This rather cute girl was shopping, and asked "hey, is this Miles Davis?" I told her no, and that it was Jacques Coursil, handed her the cover or whatever, and of course that blew her mind - probably because she had assumed "jazz trumpet = Miles" without knowing what else was out there. Needless to say, she did keep coming back to the store... I'll certainly say that having the idea of Miles as a reference point is a good one if someone can go beyond it - but then we're talking sociology rather than something inherent in his work.

What have you heard? Not trying to bust yer nuts, just curious. I would assume whatever they were doing in the mid- to late-90s. It has been some time, so I can't even recall exactly what was so wrong about them - maybe too cloying and/or schlocky. I can't hit the nails on the head like Jim Sangrey today with the whole vituperative specificity thing...

Exactly. Might as well just go on living - I wouldn't leave my house if I worried about shit all the time.

I'd believe that from someone without the last name Phoenix, but considering his history... Good movie, though.

That is a pretty strong live performance. And one of the very few (only?) piano-less dates Woody ever played on (at least that got released). Check yr Dolphy collection and re-think that last statement, brah!

Medeski, Martin and Wood - whatever they are, I don't care for it. Also, though I would NEVER say I "hate" their playing, Arthur Doyle and Noah Howard do drive me up the wall sometimes - ironically, both have either been on or put out some of my favorite records, but it's not what they're doing that I like. Weird, huh?

Jazzbo: those were some good two cents.

Yeah, but I want an old Fantasy hoodie, too!

I hear you, but I'm just playing the card. I will say that it could as much as a rock band like Sonic Youth does, or Zappa did, however. Mingus, had he been treated a little better by companies like Columbia and Atlantic, probably could have been more of a household name than he is, don't you think? I know I'm derailing this a bit, but it's interesting to think why someone who took as many chances as Miles did is _everywhere_ while a lot of similarly adventurous music with the chance to be on major labels, is not. I think the answer is probably in how mercurial a lot of artists are that they couldn't "get there," part of it anyway, but to me this question does lead us into that murky debate of "why isn't this music we love more popular?" If I heard "Ghosts" on cellphone ringtones, I'd be fired-up. Don't know about the rest of y'all, but...

Good question - I have a few of them, too, and they do sound fine. I always assumed fold-down, but I'm not sure.

This is an interesting debate. I mean, David Ware's music is pretty unequivocally 'out,' but he certainly has the personality to sell himself. Too bad that short-lived deal with Columbia didn't work; I mean, that music could have moved some units. Maybe not Miles units, but some units for sure. He just didn't get the right "push" on top of his own drive and charisma.

Presenting Burton Greene was on Columbia, actually, and was balanced between free and somewhat filmic, almost 'pop' tunes.

Peter Lemer - Local Colour - (ESP-Disk') great and rare British free jazz with an early appearance by John Surman, as well as George Khan and drummer Jon Hiseman (Colosseum). Lemer plays piano, and was also with the Spontaneous Music Ensemble for a brief period. Lemer reminds me of a more tonally ambiguous Don Freidman, FWIW.

Or the Frank Lloyd Wright on Caedemon when I'm looking for Frank Wright LPs...

Paul Bley Quintet - Barrage - (ESP original red label mono) - a somewhat odd classic, hearing Carla Bley's compositions played by Marshall Allen and Milford Graves!

I'd say there were a lot of bands as good or better than some of the Miles groups, especially of the '60s, so I think a lot of it would have to do with marketing and availability of the music. But why him? I mean, what if Columbia pushed the Burton Greene Quartet as much as it did Miles' records in '67 or '68? Presenting Burton Greene might be in some ways more interesting musically than Nefertiti - and the former does have some 'inside,' almost populist moments to it also (read: radio-friendly), so why not? Or, for that matter, Atlantic/Vortex could've pushed the hell out of Byard Lancaster, but they probably did not. Then there's Impulse and the Albert Ayler sides starting with Love Cry, on which there are a number of short, playlist-ready tunes that "anyone can hum." But I digress... I suppose Miles' popularity might've started with the Gil Evans sides, which certainly would've appealed to the fascination with big bands and orchestral jazz, as Allan implied earlier, but his appeal certainly has to go beyond that. Certainly there were pop and rock records selling well then, so the advent of "rock" certainly didn't have to be the reason behind the alienation of young audiences to jazz, did it? And I would think Miles sold hugely even with the boom in rock music factored in. Again, I wasn't "there," so it's interesting to me how these cards were played during that time.