The Grateful Dead Dark Star

[Sundog]

Thanks for posting. All seems positive regarding "Buffalo"

[Kalo]

I hate to pee on anyone's parade, but I never "got" what was so great about the Grateful Dead.

For a band with TWO drummers they seem to be, shall we say, a bit lacking in groove. A friend of mine, accurately in my opinion, once described their music as "flaccid rock."

Plus, they can't none of them sing, and Jerry Garcia's guitar playing seems like just a bunch of scales to me.

So, for those of us not on drugs, how do you justify this band?

[jazzbo]

Sorry you don't get it. No one is going to be able to explain it to you. You either like them or you don't. I don't enjoy everything you do, and I don't need to.

[Sundog]

I hate to pee on anyone's parade, but I never "got" what was so great about the Grateful Dead.

For a band with TWO drummers they seem to be, shall we say, a bit lacking in groove. A friend of mine, accurately in my opinion, once described their music as "flaccid rock."

Plus, they can't none of them sing, and Jerry Garcia's guitar playing seems like just a bunch of scales to me.

So, for those of us not on drugs, how do you justify this band?

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It's not my job to justify them as a band. If you compare the Dead to a typical rock outfit your missing the whole point. I do suggest that every so often you give them a try. Your tastes may change from year to year. I'll admit to not really "getting" all aspects of the Dead at first. Listen without prejudice I say! There are plenty of great suggestions in this thread to get you started.

[Quincy]

Most Deadheads can insult the band more wickedly than people who profess not to like them. The band had such a long run with a change in the cast and inclinations that it's easy to like some years more than others and some not at all. Key buzzwords to start trouble are "Donna," "Vince," "Samba," "the '80s," "Drumz/Space," "Brent songs," and "MIDI" for starters.

And they didn't always have 2 drummers. Personally my favorite years are when they just had one. Check out the years from '72 to '74 if indeed that is one of your qualms. Though there's no getting around "the problem" of Jerry's guitar style.

Flaccid? Not in a fall '72 "Playin'," or the end of a hot "Deal." Not ever in the '60s. I mean some of their biggest fans were the Hells Angels. You wanna say their taste runs towards flaccid? I've heard "noodley," and a wet noodle is flaccid, so if that's what your friend is trying to explain then I can see it (at least some of the time.) When I hear flaccid I think of something like Billy Joel or Christopher Cross ballad myself.

Elvis Costello has gone on record as appreciating the vulnerability in Jerry's voice. Of course Elvis can't sing either can he?

Usually fans of power pop are less likely to like the Grateful Dead, since their attention span runs out after 3:30. Not that I'm interested in converting everyone to the band, but I've found that the live acoustic album "Reckoning" usually plays better for those who say they don't like the Dead more than anything else. But there's no guarantee.

But be careful, liking the Grateful Dead can happen to anyone, even those who never imagined it. I recently assisted a young British friend with some Dead recommendations from archive.org. He was grabbing Billy Bragg recordings and most of his collection consists of indie bands and folk singers. His curiosity got the better of him.

Edited July 10, 2005 by Quincy

[gdogus]

Most Deadheads can insult the band more wickedly than people who profess not to like them. The band had such a long run with a change in the cast and inclinations that it's easy to like some years more than others and some not at all. Key buzzwords to start trouble are "Donna," "Vince," "Samba," "the '80s," "Drumz/Space," "Brent songs," and "MIDI" for starters.

And they didn't always have 2 drummers. Personally my favorite years are when they just had one. Check out the years from '72 to '74 if indeed that is one of your qualms. Though there's no getting around "the problem" of Jerry's guitar style.

Flaccid? Not in a fall '72 "Playin'," or the end of a hot "Deal." Not ever in the '60s. I mean some of their biggest fans were the Hells Angels. You wanna say their taste runs towards flaccid? I've heard "noodley," and a wet noodle is flaccid, so if that's what your friend is trying to explain then I can see it (at least some of the time.) When I hear flaccid I think of something like Billy Joel or Christopher Cross ballad myself.

Elvis Costello has gone on record as appreciating the vulnerability in Jerry's voice. Of course Elvis can't sing either can he?

Usually fans of power pop are less likely to like the Grateful Dead, since their attention span runs out after 3:30. Not that I'm interested in converting everyone to the band, but I've found that the live acoustic album "Reckoning" usually plays better for those who say they don't like the Dead more than anything else. But there's no guarantee.

But be careful, liking the Grateful Dead can happen to anyone, even those who never imagined it. I recently assisted a young British friend with some Dead recommendations from archive.org. He was grabbing Billy Bragg recordings and most of his collection consists of indie bands and folk singers. His curiosity got the better of him.

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Great post. Frankly, what I "don't get" is someone posting in a thread on a band they admittedly "don't get," only to throw around insults - and insults apparently justified by professed ignorance, at that.

It's just kinda weird, ya know?

Edited July 10, 2005 by gdogus

[Chalupa]

Bob Dylan's press release regarding Jerry Garcia's death

"There's no way to measure his greatness or magnitude as a person or as a player. I don't think any eulogizing will do him justice. He was that great, much more than a superb musician, with an uncanny ear and dexterity. He's the very spirit personified of whatever is Muddy River country at its core and screams up into the spheres. He really had no equal. To me he wasn't only a musician and friend, he was more like a big brother who taught and showed me more than he'll ever know. There's a lot of spaces and advances between The Carter Family, Buddy Holly and, say, Ornette Coleman, a lot of universes, but he filled them all without being a member of any school. His playing was moody, awesome, sophisticated, hypnotic and subtle. There's no way to convey the loss. It just digs down really deep."

[gdogus]

Thanks for the Dylan statement. That's nice.

To answer a couple of aspects of Kalo's question, disingenuous thought it may be:

Songwriting

Collectively, The Grateful Dead really were some of the great American songwriters. The songs of Garcia/Hunter and Weir/Barlow (or Weir/Hunter, or whatever), are significant contributions to the Great American Songbook. Random evidence:

Bertha

Box of Rain

Brown-Eyed Women

Candyman

Casey Jones

Cassidy

China Cat Sunflower

China Doll

Dire Wolf

Eyes of the World

Fire on the Mountain

Franklin's Tower

Friend of the Devil

He's Gone

High Time

It Must Have Been the Roses

Jack Straw

Mississippi Half-Step Uptown Toodeloo

Looks Like Rain

Scarlet Begonias

Ship of Fools

St. Stephen

Sugaree

Sugar Magnolia

Tennessee Jed

Terrapin Station

Truckin'

Uncle John's Band

Improvisation

They were great songwriters, but what they did with those songs - letting them become their own things on any given night, night after night - was very, very special. Their dedication to playing in the moment testified, on the one hand, to a faith in the songs as entities unto themselves that could stand up in constantly morphing musical circumstances. On the other hand - and this is just as important - it testified to their unwillingness to let the songs "settle" into concrete forms. They saw it all as a shifting form, and that's much of their greatness.

Oh, and some serious instrumental chops, too.

Edited July 10, 2005 by gdogus

[Quincy]

Bob Dylan's press release regarding Jerry Garcia's death

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Pffft. That guy couldn't sing either.

From Miles autobiography:

"So it was through Bill (Graham) that I met the Grateful Dead. Jerry Garcia, their guitar player, and I hit off great, talking about music - what they liked and what I liked - and I think we all learned something, grew some. Jerry Garcia loved jazz, and I found out that he loved my music and had been listening to it for a long time. He loved other jazz musicians, too, like Ornette Coleman and Bill Evans. Laura Nyro was a very quiet person offstage and I think I kind of frightened her."

I love that last sentence so much I couldn't leave it out.

Now as far as what Miles thought Steve Miller, see page 301. I would reprint it here, but kids are out of school for summer and all.

[jazzbo]

Yes, Garcia amazes me with his extensive love and knowledge of so much music, of so many styles. AND I feel he was a wonderful guitarist doing much more than running scales. . . . He's missed these days. Can you imagine if we still had him?

[Alexander]

I've come to the Dead relatively recently (as in, during the past five years or so), but I've only just started getting really hooked on their music. Several years back, I picked up "Workingman's Dead" and "American Beauty." I also got a couple of "Dick's Picks" sets (number 8 and number 11) which I really liked. The only "early" album I had was "Live Dead," and I picked up a couple of other live releases ("Skull and Roses" and "Europe '72'). I dutifully upgraded these when the reissues came out in 2003 (my last act - literally - before getting fired at B&N). Since then, nothing at all until recently. Just for the hell of it, I put on "Dick's Picks #8" and...BAM. It just kinda hit me. Wow! What an amazing set! Don't know why I didn't see it before. Prompted by that, I got their first three studio albums and "Postcards from the Hanging" (live material from between '73 and the 1990s in which the Dead cover Dylan material...much better than they did with Dylan himself on "Dylan and the Dead," I might add...although I really don't think "Dylan and the Dead" is nearly as bad as its made out to be). I've also ordered "Blues for Allah," "Reckoning," and "The Arista Years" (which, according the Jerry Garcia's biographer Blair Jackson, is the best way to approach the material from the late 70s and 80s). I'd be interested in any other recommendations. I see that "Greyfolded" gets good reviews from the folks on this board. What else should I look for? What "Dick's Picks" or other live sets are essential? I've considered "Dozin' at the Knick."

As to how one "justifies" the Dead...It's hard to explain. What I admire in them is the same thing I admire about Elvis Costello: These guys were clearly fans themselves. Their sheer pleasure in playing a variety of music is clear when you listen to them. And Jerry's improvisations are definitely something that a jazz ear can appreciate!

[Quincy]

Just for the hell of it, I put on "Dick's Picks #8" and...BAM.

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The "bam" just happens out of nowhere doesn't it? I've had 3 bam moments, each leading to greater interest. The last one sent me over the edge.

As you seem to flitting between all of the eras and enjoying them, it's easy to recommend things for you to investigate. I like the choices you made, especially "Blues For Allah" & "Reckoning." And while I don't have it you probably did right by grabbing the Arista years, as it grabs the good ones from the later era. And going the route of "Skull & Roses" & "Europe '72" is very old school. That's the way all of us from the LP era did it!

Probably my favorite Dick's Pick is #12 (6/26-28/74.) The long intro to the China > Rider is one of the most beautiful things ever recorded. The jam out of the "Let It Grow" is pretty amazing too. A great "Eyes," and "Beer Barrel Polka" is the sort of thing to make ya love 'em even more.

I also really enjoy DP 18 (Feb '78) for the 2 second set discs (2 & 3). The 1st disc is a cobbled together 1st set from 3 nights (even though the notes say 2) which includes a tremendous "Music Never Stopped" and "Passenger."

Any of the '77s is worth a shot. Perhaps DP 29 (5/19 & 5/21/77) would be my 1st pick, but it's all good (might be the only time I've used that saying but it works here.)

From The Vault: Great American Music Hall, S.F., 8/17/75 is a must in my book. Aside from a powerful "Help>Slip>Frank" there are 2 beauties that they rarely if ever did live again (forgive me for not checking my Deadbase) - "Sage & Spirit" and "King Solomon's Marbles." Its price might be a little higher than a Dick's Pick but it is worth it.

I'm a big fan of DP 14 (11/30 & 12/2/73), but as a 4 disc DP that perhaps could wait for further exploration.

Tough call on whether to pick Dozin' over Without A Net (probably so.) You might want to consider the Nightfall of Diamonds (10/10/89) over both. Other Brent era considerations are DP 13 (5/6/81) and DP 5 (12/26/79.) I like DP 6 (10/14/83) but seem to be in the minority.

Oh yes, the '71 set Ladies & Gentlemen...The Grateful Dead: Fillmore East 4/25-29/71 is pretty durn good too. They were really on for that run.

I'll stop there. But there are other delights. OK, one more. The So Many Roads box might be a natural for you. Very nice selections from across the eras. The "Whiskey In The Jar" rehearsal from near the end is such a delight. Loads of good stuff.

You mentioned Blair Jackson earlier. You probably know of his website, but if not here's the link. His review of DPs and releases ends sometime around 2002.

Here's a list of Dick's Picks that might be of use as well.

Enjoy the exploration!

Edited July 11, 2005 by Quincy

[WD45]

Plus, they can't none of them sing, and Jerry Garcia's guitar playing seems like just a bunch of scales to me.

I love the dead, but I am still not a fan of Bob Weir's vocals.

I am a huge fan of Jerry's guitar playing. There are no other guitar players around then or now that can keep me interested for 30 minutes on one theme. There is a dynamic and fleet in his playing that I get lost in, especially on those earlier psychedelic flights of 1968-1970.

[jazzbo]

I agree with you on Jerry's playing.

I'm a fan of Weir's singing though. . . always have been. . . it was Jerry's singing I had to warm up to, and did, and love it now. Pigpen is Pigpen and when he was on he was the bluesman from hell. . . . When I'm in the mood he's great to listen to.

[AmirBagachelles]

anybody's choice, for your pleasure, our pleasure

grateful dead was and will always be music and feeling of friendship, mystery and love

[Chalupa]

Maybe they should call themselves "Jefferson Wheelchair"???

[jazzbo]

New this week to www.yourmusic.com : three Jerry Garcia cds:

Reflections

Run for the Roses

Cats under the stars

[Sundog]

Just heard on the radio that today is Keith Godchaux's birthday. A good excuse to listen to some Dead. I'm Rockin' The Rhein right now!

[Tony Pusey]

Just playing the latest Dicks, the legend of the houseboat tapes...First album is a bit lackluster, but after a good Truckin at the end of cd 1, BAM! cd2 begins with a stunning China Cat and all is forgiven!

[Aggie87]

On a whim the other day I preodered Truckin' Up To Buffalo, July 4, 1989 from CD Universe.  Am I going to be sorry? Or is this pretty good late period Dead?

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Had a chance to listen to this yet? Any good?

The cover has caught my eye more than once, already....

[Tony Pusey]

.....and it gets better, one can really hear what Lesh is up to in the engine room on this Dicks and there is some really nice jamming. If this and Ladies and Gentlemen are indicative, 71 was a pretty good vintage.

[Chalupa]

YESSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!

http://dead.net/merchandising/music/DECD291/

Edited July 27, 2005 by Chalupa

[Chalupa]

Forgot to add if you do the pre-order you get a bonus disc. I have no idea what's on it.

[Guest akanalog]

later 71 is cool. earlier 71 is a letdown from earlier yeas. too much experimenting with new songs-concise tentative arrangements. towards the end of the year things got a bit wilder.

[kenny weir]

YESSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!                       

http://dead.net/merchandising/music/DECD291/

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Wow this seems like a steal at the price, especially with the bonus disc. Whether I NEED all that is something I'll ponder in the coming week or so.

Just landed and loving: The 5cd soundtrack set.