I admit it, I'm confused.

[wolff]

Probably beating a dead horse, but I'm dense(or too involved with vinyl).

I've been trying to get my head around the changes occurring with CD's.

We have Redbook Standard that all players and CD's are supposed to follow, right? And it works and has worked fine.

SACD and DVD-A are totally different and have their own standards, that have been agreed upon by the hardware and software makers, right? And everyone is pretty happy.

I'm now hearing of this being put on CD's with copy protection: WARNING WE ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR THE INABILITY OF THIS CD TO PLAY ON EVERY CD PLAYER OR DAMAGE IT MAY CAUSE TO PLAYBACK EQUIPMENT.

Here is where things get fuzzy for me.

Is this 'possible inability to play' caused by the software not meeting Redbook Standard?

Or, is it caused by players that can play more than Redbook Standard (like MP3 and CDR) that makes the CD think it is in a position to be copied, thus preventing play?

When I go to buy a new CD player or a computer that I want to play CD's via, I want to have this figured out.

Edited July 25, 2004 by wolff

[Swinging Swede]

I've been trying to get my head around the changes occurring with CD's.

We have Redbook Standard that all players and CD's are supposed to follow, right? And it works and has worked fine.

There are no changes ocurring with CDs. The CD standard still is the same as it has been since the early 80s and works fine as you say, guaranteeing 100% playability on all CD players. What has happened is that some record companies have put out discs of other formats (not CDs). As a Philips spokesperson said: "Any changes that put a disc outside the CD standard result in a disc that should no longer be described or marketed as a CD.” [...] ”We've made sure they would put a very clear warning that you're not buying a compact disc, but something different. We've been warning some labels to begin with, and they've adjusted their behaviour. That means labels would also be barred from using the familiar "compact disc" logo that has been stamped on every CD since Philips and Sony jointly developed the technology in 1978.”

I'm now hearing of this being put on CD's with copy right protection: WARNING WE ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR THE INABILITY OF THIS CD TO PLAY ON EVERY CD PLAYER OR DAMAGE IT MAY CAUSE TO PLAYBACK EQUIPMENT.

Here is where things get fuzzy for me.

Is this 'possible inability to play' caused by the software not meeting Redbook Standard?

The answer is yes, if by software you are referring to the discs.

And there have indeed been reports about copy-protected discs causing damage to playback equipment (as alluded to in the warning). That is because non-standard discs with intentionally bad data may cause behaviour patterns that the equipment isn’t designed to handle.

I also would like to point out that copyright protection and copy protection are two different things. A release may not be copyright-protected but still be copy-protected, and vice versa. The recent RVG of Horace Silver Trio is a case in point: Outside the US the copyright of these 1952-53 recordings has expired, but the RVG is copy-protected. In the US the recordings are still copyright-protected, but there the RVG isn’t copy-protected. Go figure.

[Claude]

Or, is it caused by players that can play more than Redbook Standard (like MP3 and CDR) that makes the CD think it is in a position to be copied, thus preventing play?

I agree with what Swinging Swede says, but the hardware part is also true.

Problems with copyprotected CDs usually happen with DVD drives. Not only DVD players use such drives but also some car CD players.

Currently, copyprotection is still rare on the jazz sector. Only EMI (Blue Note) has implimented it in Europe. I haven't yet seen other jazz CDs with copyprotection. This may however change very fast because of the labels anti-piracy craze.

On the other hand, copyrotection technology may also improve so that compatibility problems become less frequent. What EMI did was irresponsible, their copyprotection scheme (Cactus datashield) was not ready for the market.

Edited July 25, 2004 by Claude

[sidewinder]

Too true ! I've yet to listen through Hill's 'Passing Ships' without a skip and a jump intruding.

[J.A.W.]

Too true !  I've yet to listen through Hill's 'Passing Ships' without a skip and a jump intruding.

Why don't you get a copyprotection-free copy from CDUniverse ($14.59 or about £8.10) or CDConnection.

Edited July 25, 2004 by J.A.W.

[wolff]

I also would like to point out that copyright protection and copy protection are two different things

Got it.

The recent RVG of Horace Silver Trio is a case in point: Outside the US the copyright of these 1952-53 recordings has expired, but the RVG is copy-protected. In the US the recordings are still copyright-protected, but there the RVG isn’t copy-protected. Go figure.

Interesting

I agree with what Swinging Swede says, but the hardware part is also true.

Problems with copyprotected CDs usually happen with DVD drives. Not only DVD players use such drives but also some car CD players.

OK. Is it the really the players fault if it was mainly designed to play DVD, not Redbook Standard CD?

[Bluerein]

It's getting worse in EUrope....Fresh Sound New Talent new issues have the copy protection too.

I was able to do a listening test with CD's from the same pressing plant with and without copy protection (coutesy of Michael Cuscuna) and I couldn't head any difference between them. I know the so called audiofools believe they do hear a difference but I don't (and believe me my system reveals a lot, so to speak, my Stax earphones too for that matter).

The reason I did this test was I heard a big difference between the US printed Connoisseurs (Hill, Mobley) and their EU pressed (and copy protected) couterparts. I thought this was due to the copy protection but to be sure I needed copies of the same music from the same plant with and without the protection and MC arranged this from the UK devision of EMI. There are a few titles which are CP in mainland EU but not in the UK (don't know why) and those I got for the test. Van Morrison, Al Green, Cassandra Wilson and Dianne Reeves were the cd's.

The funny thing is I thought the US pressed non CP cd's sounded much better than the CP EU discs. I always buy the US versions of Fantasy and BN cd's because of the better printed artwork but now there seems to be another reason to do so......

Cheers,

Reinier

[Swinging Swede]

I agree with what Swinging Swede says, but the hardware part is also true.

Well, different players certainly handle these discs differently, but since wolff’s question was what causes the “possible inability to play”, I don't think it’s fair to blame hardware that is designed in accordance with existing standards and plays Red Book CDs flawlessly. The blame, IMHO, must be put squarely on the disc that deviates from the established standards. Standards and adherence to them is the only thing that can guarantee 100% compatibility between hardware and software, and the one who deviates from them is the one who must be blamed for causing the non-playability.

[Swinging Swede]

It's getting worse in EUrope....Fresh Sound New Talent new issues have the copy protection too.

Really? That baffles me. It’s one thing when big labels, for whom pop is the main priority, panic and slap copy protection on their releases, and as a consequence it affects their jazz releases too, since they lump jazz together with pop. But Fresh Sound is not the kind of label one would expect to make this move. This can only hurt sales for them. By the way, I checked some recent FSNT releases on amazon.de, and saw no mention of “Kopiergeschützt” there (at least not yet). As I’ve understood it, that must be indicated in Germany.

[wolff]

I don't think it’s fair to blame hardware that is designed in accordance with existing standards and plays Red Book CDs flawlessly. The blame, IMHO, must be put squarely on the disc that deviates from the established standards. Standards and adherence to them is the only thing that can guarantee 100% compatibility between hardware and software, and the one who deviates from them is the one who must be blamed for causing the non-playability.

Things are getting less fuzzy.

Follow up...

As a Philips spokesperson said: "Any changes that put a disc outside the CD standard result in a disc that should no longer be described or marketed as a CD.” [...] ”We've made sure they would put a very clear warning that you're not buying a compact disc, but something different. We've been warning some labels to begin with, and they've adjusted their behaviour. That means labels would also be barred from using the familiar "compact disc" logo that has been stamped on every CD since Philips and Sony jointly developed the technology in 1978.”

Consumers sure are getting the shaft. How can we keep up and be assured of a quality product, one that is predictable, if STANDARDS are not being followed?

OK, I think it's sinking in.

My DVD player plays CD's. I'm guessing that because it has the compact disc logo(along with MP3 logo) it meets those standards and has circuitry to match. But, when a CP disc is installed it may not play because it does not follow Redbook standards?

[Swinging Swede]

But, when a CP disc is installed it may not play because it does not follow Redbook standards?

Exactly.

[Z-Man]

Consumers sure are getting the shaft.  How can we keep up and be assured of a quality product, one that is predictable, if STANDARDS are not being followed? 

You, of all people, should know the answer to that...

[wolff]

This situation is like putting an LP on the turntable and getting silence, because the new LP's play backwards.

[Jim Alfredson]

I was able to do a listening test with CD's from the same pressing plant with and without copy protection (coutesy of Michael Cuscuna) and I couldn't head any difference between them.

The funny thing is I thought the US pressed non CP cd's sounded much better than the CP EU discs.

Uh..... so which is it?

[Clunky]

It's getting worse in EUrope....Fresh Sound New Talent new issues have the copy protection too.

Really? That baffles me. It’s one thing when big labels, for whom pop is the main priority, panic and slap copy protection on their releases, and as a consequence it affects their jazz releases too, since they lump jazz together with pop. But Fresh Sound is not the kind of label one would expect to make this move. This can only hurt sales for them. By the way, I checked some recent FSNT releases on amazon.de, and saw no mention of “Kopiergeschützt” there (at least not yet). As I’ve understood it, that must be indicated in Germany.

surely a joke ?

[Claude]

I agree with what Swinging Swede says, but the hardware part is also true.

Well, different players certainly handle these discs differently, but since wolff’s question was what causes the “possible inability to play”, I don't think it’s fair to blame hardware that is designed in accordance with existing standards and plays Red Book CDs flawlessly. The blame, IMHO, must be put squarely on the disc that deviates from the established standards. Standards and adherence to them is the only thing that can guarantee 100% compatibility between hardware and software, and the one who deviates from them is the one who must be blamed for causing the non-playability.

Yes, but I wasn't talking about blame or responsibility in the compatibility issues. It's a fact that problems with copyprotected CD usually happen with players that have a DVD drive.

The best way to avoid problems is not to buy copyprotected discs (this would also show the industry that copyprotection is not the right way). But if one must play such CDs, a CD-only player will give the best results

[rockefeller center]

It's getting worse in EUrope....Fresh Sound New Talent new issues have the copy protection too.

I was able to do a listening test with CD's from the same pressing plant with and without copy protection (coutesy of Michael Cuscuna) and I couldn't head any difference between them. I know the so called audiofools believe they do hear a difference but I don't (and believe me my system reveals a lot, so to speak, my Stax earphones too for that matter).

The reason I did this test was I heard a big difference between the US printed Connoisseurs (Hill, Mobley) and their EU pressed (and copy protected) couterparts. I thought this was due to the copy protection but to be sure I needed copies of the same music from the same plant with and without the protection and MC arranged this from the UK devision of EMI. There are a few titles which are CP in mainland EU but not in the UK (don't know why) and those I got for the test. Van Morrison, Al Green, Cassandra Wilson and Dianne Reeves were the cd's.

The funny thing is I thought the US pressed non CP cd's sounded much better than the CP EU discs. I always buy the US versions of Fantasy and BN cd's because of the better printed artwork but now there seems to be another reason to do so......

I'm sure some audio fools picked up the information you posted and thought they could hear a difference as well. So US pressings don't sound much better to you now, do they?

I've just finished comparing the sound of the EU copy protected Passing Ships and The Flip against the US non copy protected ones and.......

There's a sound difference too!! The US versions have more air around the instruments. The cymbals for instance have a far more realistic ring on the non copy protected disc's.

So that's even worse imo.

Michael C (who asked me to compare them in the first place) was affraid this was the case and will conduct his own survey in US studios to confirm my findings (or trash them because I'm only human too!!!).

Keep you posted and all the best,

Reinier

The reason I did this test was I heard a big difference between the US printed Connoisseurs (Hill, Mobley) and their EU pressed (and copy protected) couterparts. I thought this was due to the copy protection but to be sure I needed copies of the same music from the same plant with and without the protection and MC arranged this from the UK devision of EMI.

Next time you should do such tests before talking about sound differences on chat boards, so audio fools won't be tempted to draw false conclusions that easily. How do you set up your listening tests btw?

[rockefeller center]

I was able to do a listening test with CD's from the same pressing plant with and without copy protection (coutesy of Michael Cuscuna) and I couldn't head any difference between them.

The funny thing is I thought the US pressed non CP cd's sounded much better than the CP EU discs.

Uh..... so which is it?

I'd say he declared himself a so called audio fool.

[Jim Alfredson]

Next time you should do such tests before talking about sound differences on chat boards, so audio fools won't be tempted to draw false conclusions that easily. How do you set up your listening tests btw?

What are these companies using as copy protection? Is it one of these schemes that induces errors into the datastream? If so, I can say there would be an audible difference without hearing the discs. Anything that increases jitter is BAD. The digital clock is the weakest link in the chain in most CD players and anything that would specifically mess with it even more would definately make a sonic difference.

[rockefeller center]

Next time you should do such tests before talking about sound differences on chat boards, so  audio fools won't be tempted to draw false conclusions that easily. How do you set up your listening tests btw?

What are these companies using as copy protection? Is it one of these schemes that induces errors into the datastream? If so, I can say there would be an audible difference without hearing the discs. Anything that increases jitter is BAD. The digital clock is the weakest link in the chain in most CD players and anything that would specifically mess with it even more would definately make a sonic difference.

I have no idea - please ask an audiophile fool, bluerein or some other fools. I am deaf.

Edited July 27, 2004 by rockefeller center

[rockefeller center]

Is there an audio fool lurking this board who knows what he's talking about? If so, please share your peer reviewed papers BASED ON FACTS - not on placebos.

Edited July 27, 2004 by rockefeller center

[Bluerein]

What's the matter with you Rockefeller??? Bad youth?

I just stated my opinion and you can have your own.

Just leave it like that and read my posting carefully before drawing your stupid conclusions.

Cheers,

Reinier

[wolff]

Just leave it like that and read my posting carefully before drawing your stupid conclusions.

I understood your post and I'm more drunk that RC.

I don't think it was an audiofool that invented CD's. Just an engineer, who with his tests cried, "perfect sound, forever" and you all bought into it hook line and sinker. LMAO

Also, are Japanese CD's going to be CPed soon?

[Bluerein]

The new Toshiba/EMI releases are already CP'ed in Japan.

Cheers,

Reinier

[J.A.W.]

As far as I know the new TOCJ24s are not copy-protected.