Daniel A Posted May 15, 2003 Report Posted May 15, 2003 This is a real gem! Topic: Major scoop concerning Moncur's Evolution bertrand Member Member # 230 posted July 23, 2001 05:06 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I've known this for a while, but kept forgetting to post it here, for reasons obscure even to me. Anyway, I thought I would start with a teaser to get the ball rolling. I will post the answer "at my convenience", just to get to see what guesses you guys come up with. So here's the scoop. The information for this is first hand, namely Grachan Moncur III told it to Jeff McMillan (the author of the Master's thesis on Lee Morgan mentioned elsewhere). I then confirmed it with the other party involved. In late 1963, when Evolution was recorded, Lee Morgan was just exiting a period of inactivity due to "personal problems". He was booked to do Evolution, but could not be found for the rehearsals, so *ANOTHER* trumpet player was brought in by Jackie to the rehearsals just in case Lee didn't make the date. Of course, at the last minute, Lee sauntered in, and laid down the incredible playing that we know. Lee even later told his brother Jimmy that it was his favorite playing on record. So, the question is: WHICH TRUMPETER ALMOST SUBBED FOR LEE MORGAN ON EVOLUTION? The winner gets a copy of The Complete Blue Note recording sessions 1939-2001 (including rejected and unissued takes) on SACD. Stefan Wood is disqualified because I already told him the answer privately. HINT: The answer is not at all obvious! Put on your thinking caps. Bertrand. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 1798 | From: Bethesda, MD | Registered: Mar 99 | IP: Logged Chuck Nessa Member Member # 422 posted July 23, 2001 06:07 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Must be CT. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 2284 | From: Whitehall, MI | Registered: Oct 1999 | IP: Logged impossible Member Member # 515 posted July 23, 2001 06:45 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Charles Tolliver, Chuck? Possibly Alan Shorter? Hm... Eddie Gale? Don Cherry? Am I going to far? How many guesses do I get? I don't believe you Bertrand. You aren't giving away anything! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 1902 | From: Riverside, RI | Registered: Nov 1999 | IP: Logged lukrion Member Member # 1156 posted July 23, 2001 06:48 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Someone that would be totally un-obvious. I would guess either Donald Byrd or Kenny Dorham, because they are not typical for Grachans camp. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 1944 | From: Pa, USA | Registered: Oct 2000 | IP: Logged BFrank Member Member # 1089 posted July 23, 2001 08:16 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- OK, since no one else will take the plunge - I'll say Miles. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 3130 | From: SF | Registered: Sep 2000 | IP: Logged jhr Member Member # 659 posted July 23, 2001 08:31 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Clark Terry? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 217 | From: Roseville, MN, USA | Registered: Feb 2000 | IP: Logged James Dye Member Member # 840 posted July 23, 2001 09:41 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Nat Adderley -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 462 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Apr 2000 | IP: Logged JSngry Member Member # 1611 posted July 23, 2001 10:26 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 63? Jackie connection? Blue Note? A Moncur date? (Newark?) The obvious unobvious answer would be Kinney Dorham. 63 perhaps being a little (barely) too early for a Tolliver tip, one might feel that Tommy Turentine might be a reasonable choice. One could select Bill Hardman (no realation to Glen), but that would ignore the extra - musical factors that would preclude recommendation as a sub on a recording date that was probably taken quite seriously by Jackie. So... 1963, forward looking date, need a fiery trumpeter who was at least on the outskirts of Jakie's scene & had shown himself to be able to produce on a recoding date AS WELL AS somebody who would be cool "socially"... There's only one player I can think of,,, Woody Shaw. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 10291 | From: tx, usa | Registered: Mar 2001 | IP: Logged bertrand Member Member # 230 posted July 23, 2001 10:58 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is fun. Some good guesses there, but no cigar yet. Please note that I said that I got confirmation form the trumpeter him (or her) self, and this is after Jeff's thesis was published last year, so it has to be someone who is still alive. I liked the Woody Shaw guess, but no. The answer is less obvious than any of these guesses, I'm afraid. But it's someone who is somewhat known, although maybe not by everyone on this board. Bertrand. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 1798 | From: Bethesda, MD | Registered: Mar 99 | IP: Logged Jimmy Mahler Member Member # 1914 posted July 24, 2001 12:38 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Herb Alpert? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 312 | From: Chicago, Illinois | Registered: Jul 2001 | IP: Logged dean.r Member Member # 700 posted July 24, 2001 02:42 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I just love guessing games - I seem to remember Tommy Turrentine playing in some unlikely settings - so could it be? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 60 | From: London, England | Registered: Feb 2000 | IP: Logged Bill Fenohr Member Member # 592 posted July 24, 2001 03:35 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Him-Dizzy Reece Her-Barbara Donald -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 1484 | From: Lansing,Mi,Ingham | Registered: Jan 2000 | IP: Logged Gene Harris Fanatic Member Member # 1529 posted July 24, 2001 04:40 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- someone no one's thought of: Hub (except that I now see that Bertrand calls him "somewhat known" and that ain't Hub!) Carmell Jones? Blue Mitchell? Sweets? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 2478 | From: South Florida, USA | Registered: Mar 2001 | IP: Logged jmjk Member Member # 1325 posted July 24, 2001 05:20 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Burns? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 1781 | From: Boston and Groton, MA | Registered: Dec 2000 | IP: Logged kartoffel·hadi blues Member Member # 1008 posted July 24, 2001 05:43 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ira Sullivan? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 1125 | From: bothell, wa | Registered: Jul 2000 | IP: Logged philip Member Member # 405 posted July 24, 2001 05:47 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Idrees Sulieman? The suspense is killing! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 1657 | From: Derbyshire, UK | Registered: Sep 1999 | IP: Logged ralphie_boy Member Member # 1410 posted July 24, 2001 05:54 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Freddie Hubbard? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 731 | From: New York | Registered: Jan 2001 | IP: Logged Lon Armstrong Member Member # 137 posted July 24, 2001 05:59 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Maybe Bill Hardman. Would have been an interesting session if he had been allowed to play. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 10027 | From: Austin, TX USA | Registered: Mar 99 | IP: Logged Swinging Swede Member Member # 197 posted July 24, 2001 06:06 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Wynton! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 1484 | From: Sweden | Registered: Aug 99 | IP: Logged lukrion Member Member # 1156 posted July 24, 2001 06:19 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Can you give us a hint? Pretty please! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 1944 | From: Pa, USA | Registered: Oct 2000 | IP: Logged sidewinder Member Member # 1104 posted July 24, 2001 06:21 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dewey Johnson? Martin Banks? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 1033 | From: SW England | Registered: Sep 2000 | IP: Logged Catman Member # 0 posted July 24, 2001 06:53 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Doc Severinson? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: | From: | Registered: A Long Time Ago! | IP: Logged Swinging Swede Member Member # 197 posted July 24, 2001 07:02 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ted Curson? Lonnie Hillyer? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 1484 | From: Sweden | Registered: Aug 99 | IP: Logged sidewinder Member Member # 1104 posted July 24, 2001 07:13 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ornette? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 1033 | From: SW England | Registered: Sep 2000 | IP: Logged bertrand Member Member # 230 posted July 24, 2001 07:15 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I already gave the biggest hint I could possibly give without giving the answer: he/she is still living. I think someone will guess, so I'll still wait a bit. Bertrand. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 1798 | From: Bethesda, MD | Registered: Mar 99 | IP: Logged impossible Member Member # 515 posted July 24, 2001 07:56 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Tell us! Has he/she ever been recorded at Blue Note? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 1902 | From: Riverside, RI | Registered: Nov 1999 | IP: Logged luke68 Member Member # 542 posted July 24, 2001 08:17 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- How many guesses are allowed? Eddie Henderson? Louis Smith? Jack Sheldon? Conte Candoli? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 280 | From: NJ - the Garden State | Registered: Dec 1999 | IP: Logged Al in NYC Member Member # 8 posted July 24, 2001 08:27 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bill Dixon?? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 29 | From: New York, NY, USA | Registered: Jun 99 | IP: Logged sidewinder Member Member # 1104 posted July 24, 2001 08:42 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bobby Bradford? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 1033 | From: SW England | Registered: Sep 2000 | IP: Logged impossible Member Member # 515 posted July 24, 2001 08:57 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Oh man. I can see Bertrand now... leaning back in his chair laughing, "I've stumped them all!" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 1902 | From: Riverside, RI | Registered: Nov 1999 | IP: Logged jhalbro Member Member # 674 posted July 24, 2001 09:01 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Really out on a limb here: Benny Carter! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 134 | From: New Orleans, LA, USA | Registered: Feb 2000 | IP: Logged E. Dankworth Junior Member Member # 1946 posted July 24, 2001 09:15 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Maynard Ferguson Benny Bailey -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 4 | From: | Registered: Jul 2001 | IP: Logged nick c Member Member # 1111 posted July 24, 2001 09:16 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Chuck Mangione -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 116 | From: eugene, oregon | Registered: Sep 2000 | IP: Logged luke68 Member Member # 542 posted July 24, 2001 09:20 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Donald Ayler? Olu Dara? Kenny Wheeler? I give up... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 280 | From: NJ - the Garden State | Registered: Dec 1999 | IP: Logged jhalbro Member Member # 674 posted July 24, 2001 09:27 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bobby Shew? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 134 | From: New Orleans, LA, USA | Registered: Feb 2000 | IP: Logged sidewinder Member Member # 1104 posted July 24, 2001 09:31 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Last and final offering ! Marcus Belgrave -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 1033 | From: SW England | Registered: Sep 2000 | IP: Logged jmjk Member Member # 1325 posted July 24, 2001 09:33 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by bertrand: No, he/she never recorded for Blue Note. Bertrand. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Never as a leader...or sideman(woman)? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 1781 | From: Boston and Groton, MA | Registered: Dec 2000 | IP: Logged BFrank Member Member # 1089 posted July 24, 2001 09:51 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael Mantler? Cecil Bridgewater? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 3130 | From: SF | Registered: Sep 2000 | IP: Logged Dennis Member Member # 1379 posted July 24, 2001 09:54 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Wynton in diapers? Al Hirt? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 189 | From: Sussex, New Jersey USA | Registered: Jan 2001 | IP: Logged sidewinder Member Member # 1104 posted July 24, 2001 09:56 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Virgil Jones? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 1033 | From: SW England | Registered: Sep 2000 | IP: Logged JSngry Member Member # 1611 posted July 24, 2001 10:14 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Eddie Armour -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 10291 | From: tx, usa | Registered: Mar 2001 | IP: Logged James Dye Member Member # 840 posted July 24, 2001 10:40 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Roy Eldridge -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 462 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Apr 2000 | IP: Logged Bill Fenohr Member Member # 592 posted July 24, 2001 12:05 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Concerning he/she, i have been racking my brain all day and just can't think of a living trumpet player who is also a cross dresser. Sorry i just could not resist. For serious how about Marvin Peterson. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 1484 | From: Lansing,Mi,Ingham | Registered: Jan 2000 | IP: Logged A Bleaden Member Member # 1341 posted July 24, 2001 01:45 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- rene mclean? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 157 | From: Glossop UK | Registered: Dec 2000 | IP: Logged jhalbro Member Member # 674 posted July 24, 2001 01:59 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Rocky the Flying Squirrel? (best known for his flying, but a much under-rated trumpeter) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 134 | From: New Orleans, LA, USA | Registered: Feb 2000 | IP: Logged luke68 Member Member # 542 posted July 24, 2001 02:53 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- One more try... Wilbur Harden? Not so healthy around the time Evolution was recorded, but nonetheless still alive... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 280 | From: NJ - the Garden State | Registered: Dec 1999 | IP: Logged bertrand Member Member # 230 posted July 24, 2001 03:14 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I repeat: the trumpeter in question is still around. Bertrand. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 1798 | From: Bethesda, MD | Registered: Mar 99 | IP: Logged BFrank Member Member # 1089 posted July 24, 2001 03:45 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- OK Lew Soloff? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 3130 | From: SF | Registered: Sep 2000 | IP: Logged kartoffel·hadi blues Member Member # 1008 posted July 24, 2001 04:42 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- For a brief moment I considered cheating by emailing Jeff. I suspect the guy’s inbox already contain a few messages, all asking the same question. Bertrand, you tease. I can’t think of a better way to generate interest in McMillan’s thesis. It’s now at the top of my “must read” list. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 1125 | From: bothell, wa | Registered: Jul 2000 | IP: Logged bertrand Member Member # 230 posted July 24, 2001 05:07 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Wow! Fifty messages, and no one's guessed yet. Take your pick: I can wait a bit longer and post the answer before I go to bed (3-4 hours from now), or I could give one more clue. There is a clue that so far, only JSangry seems to have picked up on - he started taking it in the right direction, but then came to a wrong (although plausible) conclusion. Let me know what you guys prefer - I'll check in in a little bit. Bertrand. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 1798 | From: Bethesda, MD | Registered: Mar 99 | IP: Logged bertrand Member Member # 230 posted July 24, 2001 05:16 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I double-checked the new edition of the Cuscuna/Ruppli discography to make sure that I did not lead anyone in error. I stand by my original statement: the trumpeter in question never recorded *for Blue Note* as a leader or sideperson. Bertrand. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 1798 | From: Bethesda, MD | Registered: Mar 99 | IP: Logged BFrank Member Member # 1089 posted July 24, 2001 05:35 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Are we talking about XXXXXXX XXXXXXX? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 3130 | From: SF | Registered: Sep 2000 | IP: Logged Tony Jerant Member Member # 212 posted July 24, 2001 05:50 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- A totally wild guess, since I'm stumped...Randy Brecker (would have been 18)! As far as I know he recorded as a leader for Solid State (very obscure album), but not for BN, and I can't think offhand of any BN sideman dates from the "original" BN era. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 3000 | From: Sacramento, CA | Registered: Mar 99 | IP: Logged BeBop Member Member # 24 posted July 24, 2001 06:17 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dupree Bolton? (though I thought I'd heard he'd passed recently) Leo Smith (too logical) Ted Curson (likewise) Ruby Braff (would have been perfect!) Snooky Young Quote
Daniel A Posted May 15, 2003 Author Report Posted May 15, 2003 I'll save the final posts for a day or two in case someone should still be unaware of the right answer. Quote
pryan Posted May 15, 2003 Report Posted May 15, 2003 I remember reading this thread, but have totally forgotten who the player in question was. Quote
Daniel A Posted May 15, 2003 Author Report Posted May 15, 2003 SSSHhhhhhhh.....! I was trying to play Bertrand's role this time! Quote
sidewinder Posted May 15, 2003 Report Posted May 15, 2003 I'd forgotten just how much hair I lost that day responding to this thread ! Quote
Templejazz Posted May 15, 2003 Report Posted May 15, 2003 SSSHhhhhhhh.....! I was trying to play Bertrand's role this time! OOps! I didn't catch this the first time around.......sorry! Quote
pryan Posted May 16, 2003 Report Posted May 16, 2003 Who is Webster Young? I was wondering the same thing myself and decided to check out AMG. Here's the link: Webster Young He seems to have recorded more as a sideman, mainly on Prestige dates. His album of Billie Holiday tunes looks pretty nice. Quote
Rooster_Ties Posted May 16, 2003 Report Posted May 16, 2003 Webster Young, I believe. It's not really Webster Young, is it??????????????????????????????? I remember this thread back on the BNBB, and shit if I can remember who the real answer was, other than I vaguely remember that it was somebody that I kinda had some familiarity with, at least a little bit. And I don't think I've ever heard of a "Webster Young", so that's why I don't think that's who it is. Maybe it is, but I'd be surprised. Damn, Daniel A, you would post that entire thread, and then leave out the final payoff. I remember the thread like it was yesterday, and I reread it all just now, and was about to savor the answer - only to be left hanging!!!!!!!! Quote
bertrand Posted May 16, 2003 Report Posted May 16, 2003 Webster Young it is. Webster mainly recorded as a sideman, mostly with Jackie Mac, all of it in 1957. His one 'official' album as a leader, For Lady, is a sleeper - highly recommended. He also has some bootlegs out from the early sixties which I have never heard. Webster was a fixture in D.C. for along time, but he moved to Portland, Oregon, last year. We miss him. Bertrand. Quote
Rooster_Ties Posted May 16, 2003 Report Posted May 16, 2003 Damn, I could have sworn it was somebody that people had heard of more. Like Thad Jones, or Carmell Jones, or Elvin Jones (Ok, that last one was just a joke). Still, I'm surprised it wasn't somebody I'd ever heard before, let alone someone I'd never even heard of. Quote
bertrand Posted November 24, 2005 Report Posted November 24, 2005 Dug this up for some reason. Sad to think Webster is now no longer among us. I never got to say goodbye. Also, Grachan has stated that he had eyed Woody Shaw for this record, but Alfred wanted Lee. They should have recorded a second version of this record with Woody, just as a contrast! Bertrand. Quote
sidewinder Posted November 24, 2005 Report Posted November 24, 2005 Thanks for bringing this one back up. Recall at the time the endless procrastination ! (sorry) Quote
felser Posted November 25, 2005 Report Posted November 25, 2005 Dug this up for some reason. Sad to think Webster is now no longer among us. I never got to say goodbye. Also, Grachan has stated that he had eyed Woody Shaw for this record, but Alfred wanted Lee. They should have recorded a second version of this record with Woody, just as a contrast! Bertrand. Shaw was only 18 when that was recorded, was just on the cusp of entering that universe (don't know exactly when he started playing with Dolphy, and his 'Iron Man' sessions contributions don't amount to much. He was still two years away from anything very recognizable as the great talent he was ('Cape Verdean Blues'.'The Jody Grind','Cassandranite') unless I've missed something from a bit before that. Quote
Ed S Posted November 26, 2005 Report Posted November 26, 2005 Always interesting to see who's still posting from back then..... Quote
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