hubbard-"blue spirits"

[Guest akanalog]

yeah i didn't like "hubcap" at all when i heard my friend's copy of it. not at all.

[sjarrell]

I didn't say I don't like it! It's just, imo, the lesser of the BNs. It's still a better record than most. Bad records don't happen with Jimmy Heath and Philly Joe in the band. I'm gonna go play it now!

[John L]

I actually prefer Hubbard's work as a sideman on Blue Note to his dates as a leader. I particularly like his playing with Herbie Hancock and Art Blakey.

"Open Sesame" is really a Tina Brooks date. Right? Tina wrote and arranged the majority of it.

[Michael Fitzgerald]

No, Open Sesame is a Freddie Hubbard date. Tina Brooks arranged But Beautiful and composed Open Sesame and Gypsy Blue.

The Tina Brooks date was the following week, issued as True Blue.

Mike

[BruceH]

Of the Hubbard BN's I have on vinyl, this is how I rate them:

Open Sesame

Breaking Point

Blue Spirits

Ready for Freddie

Hub Tones

Hub Cap

Here to Stay

I like the first two all the way through. Starting with Blue Spirits, there are songs that do not get played. Most fall between outstanding and blah.

For me it's like this:

Open Sesame

Here To Stay tied with Ready For Freddie

The rest just fall somewhere down there. A very interesting diversity of opinions on the subject of Hubbard on BN.

[DMP]

This exchange has got me thinking... Hubbard is a wonderful player, maybe the best of his generation, and I've enjoyed his albums since buying them when they were originally released. But, as I think about it, I don't necessarily find his Blue Note albums as appealing as the output of other artists on the label - they're maybe a little cold? Can't put my finger on it. It's hard to find fault, but there's a little distant about them. I agree with the post above about his sideman appearances. (For me, his solo on "Maiden Voyage" is one of the greatest of all modern trumpet solos.) I do like "Blue Spirits' very much, but, since it was the first Hubbard LP I bought as a kid, maybe nostalgia plays a part.

[skeith]

Hadn't listened to this one in a while and the other day I picked up my old copy to see if I wanted to upgrade.

What struck me most is that the first two tunes(Soul Surge and Cunga Black) are sort of full of cliches and the rhythm section drags, too bad because I love Joe Hen.

Then you get to Outer Forces, Blues Spirits, and Jodo with the different personnel in the rhythm section and wow - it's suddenly very lively and engaging--- the reason??????I am giving most of the credit for that to my man PETE LAROCA!!!!!!!!!!!

Edited August 26, 2004 by skeith

[BruceH]

Hadn't listened to this one in a while and the other day I picked up my old copy to see if I wanted to upgrade.

What struck me most is that the first two tunes(Soul Surge and Cunga Black) are sort of full of cliches and the rhythm section drags, too bad because I love Joe Hen.

Then you get to Outer Forces, Blues Spirits, and Jodo with the differenct personnel in the rhythm section and wow - it's suddenly very lively and engaging--- the reason??????I am giving most of the credit for that to my man PETE LAROCA!!!!!!!!!!!

You may have a point, skeith. The fact is, the tracks you mention ("Outer Forcesl," "Blue Spirits," and "Jodo") are by far my favorites on the album, whereas the first two were kind of a chore to listen to. Could it be Laroca? I'll have to listen again.

[Shawn]

I lean towards what Joe posted, the tracks with Mobley on Blue Spirits are EXCELLENT...I'm much less thrilled with the remainder of the album. Usually when I put this in the player I tend to just play those tracks. I haven't upgraded to the RVG, I have the old version and I doubt I'll be upgrading anytime soon.

Regarding Hubbard's Blue Notes in general. I much prefer Hubbard as a sideman in this era. There's nothing really *wrong* with these albums per se, but they just don't have that warm glow that BN records of the period usually inspire in me. So I would say that I tend to pull these out much less than many others. If I was going to have to list some of my favorites in order...

Goin' Up - This was my first Hubbard purchase and I still really love it. I think Hubbard's performance of I Wished I Knew is one of his best ballad performances. Blues For Brenda is another standout track.

Ready For Freddie - I have the old Conn of this album and it's been played quite a bit over the years. Easily Freddie's best arranged date of the period.

Hub Cap - This album tends to get overlooked, but I've always enjoyed it.

Open Sesame - This one I like primarily for Tina's performance. But comparitively, True Blue is a FAR superior album.

Everything else falls into the "haven't listened to them enough to rate" category.

[wesbed]

I remember, when I first purchased HUB CAP, it seems like it was January of 2003. I had to make the drive all the way across Tucson, from the Border's store and back to my home. For the forty minute drive I purchased some Starbuck's coffee and opened my new copy of HUB CAP. During the drive I believed HUB CAP was good but not great.

I just recently listened to HUB CAP to hear more of Jimmy Heath. I was listening to the HUB CAP tunes, mostly for Jimmy Heath, and enjoying Heath's playing. What caught me by surprise, however, I was enjoying the playing of all others involved as well. At the end of HUB CAP I had the thought, "Damn. That was really good."

Edited December 12, 2004 by wesbed

[sal]

I agree about "Hub Cap". An underrated album....many fine performances on there.

[BruceH]

OUTSTANDINGLY BLAH!!!!

No, seriously, folks, I like some of it just fine. As an album, though, it's no Ready For Freddie.

[ASNL77]

This is my favourite Hubbard Blue Note album along with 'Hub-tones'.'Soul surge' and 'Blue Spirits' are real crackers.This a great CD.

[ASNL77]

I just got this one recently and have enjoyed it a lot--more than Hub-Tones or Hub Cap or even Open Sesame. My favorite stuff since the CTI dates Red Clay, Straight Life, and Sky Dive.

I plan on picking up Breaking Point and Ready For Freddie too.

I have been disappointed with 'Breaking point'.I find 'Ready for Freddie' much better but I don't think I am in the majority.I have read a lot of good reviews on 'Breaking point'.

[DrJ]

Man, I will honestly never understand the slogging that Hubbard seems to take on this board, and in particular about his Blue Notes. These are as a whole such an impressive body of work! I can only conclude that many are not listening to the music but are "hearing" (in other words, projecting their expectations of) his later era commercialism and show-boating, and there's also a seemingly fashionable aspect to the drubbing he gets. I just can't see how anyone who enjoys some of, say, Lee Morgan's (many) middleweight Blue Notes (stuff like TOM CAT, CHARISMA, much of CORNBREAD even) can in the same breath rip Hubbard's high quality output for the label. Hubbard not only covered more ground musically and was far more creative (how many times can one hear Morgan play the same half-valved licks over and over again before it's enough?) but his tone at that time frankly put Morgan's rather pinched sound to shame.

I know critical assessment is no measure of an artist's quality many times, but it is worth noting that Hubbard's Blue Notes are pretty much universally lauded by commentators of widely varying backgrounds and tastes - and it's the consistency of this high opinion that I think DOES mean something.

Furthermore: his CTIs are to me WAY overvalued around here. STRAIGHT LIFE was one of the single most disappointing jazz CDs I've ever purchased...with that line up, and in the context of what Hub was attaining a scant couple of years earlier, it's amazing this mediocre rambling was the best they could come up with. If there are honestly folks who listen to that stuff with enthusiasm and can't hear quality in the Blue Notes, well, then that's all the proof I need in support of the concept of parallel universes! -_-

Anyway, that off my chest: I do agree with the "uneven" assessment of BLUE SPIRITS, it's got some very nice moments but nowhere near the level of really coherent, more realized albums like HUBTONES, READY FOR FREDDIE, HERE TO STAY, hell pretty much ALL the other Blue Notes in my book.

If you want "outish" Freddie, BREAKING POINT is a much better representation of that than anything on BLUE SPIRITS, which is his weakest of the BN studio sessions (NIGHT OF THE COOKERS takes honors as worst overall, by a wide margin).

Edited December 12, 2004 by DrJ

[BruceH]

I just got this one recently and have enjoyed it a lot--more than Hub-Tones or Hub Cap or even Open Sesame.  My favorite stuff since the CTI dates Red Clay, Straight Life, and Sky Dive.

I plan on picking up Breaking Point and Ready For Freddie too.

I have been disappointed with 'Breaking point'.I find 'Ready for Freddie' much better but I don't think I am in the majority.I have read a lot of good reviews on 'Breaking point'.

I'm not a big fan of Breaking Point either. Though that is probably due to my limited tolerance for more "outside" jazz.

[couw]

I don't think there is a need to put Morgan's BN output down in order to put Hubbard's up.

[DrJ]

Well couw, honestly speaking there WAS a bit of the provocateur coming out in me but there was a method to the madness - maybe I'm missing the mark but I think there is a knee-jerk tendency around here to praise Morgan's Blue Notes without really "hearing" what's going on, and the opposite tendency of slogging Hubbard because it's fashionable.

FWIW, anyone who knows me well around here knows I am a very big Lee Morgan fan. But honestly speaking, when I look at the staggering consistency of greatness of Hubbard's studio Blue Note recordings and compare that with Morgan's track record, I think Hub kept the quality standard much higher overall. Morgan sure as heck DID turn out some great ones, but there was a time in the later 60s - before the LIGHTHOUSE dates and the last record LEE MORGAN, both of which re-upped the ante and showed a man reignited by a passion for exploration - where he was more or less on autopilot, a couple of nice moments (CARAMBA! for example) aside. If it was a really GOOD autopilot, I still find that mighty disappointing since we all know he was capable of GREAT. Just the same way I find Hubbard's post-BN output, taken as a whole (a few surprises aside, like THE BLACK ANGEL), hugely disappointing.

So I'm not trying to disparage Morgan but simply to encourage an honest reappraisal of both of these giants' work. If people still then disagree with me, well OK, but I don't like the whiff of "dittohead" mentality I'm getting here.

Edited December 12, 2004 by DrJ

[AfricaBrass]

I haven't been following this thread, but I think Dr. J hit it out of the park with his last post.

When I got into the Blue Note catalog, Freddie Hubbard to me was one of the greats. I didn't know what his post Blue Note recordings were like, but I thought he was incredibly fluid on his horn.

I think early work is now filtered by what he has done in the subsequent decades. If he'd have left the jazz scene in 1966, he'd probably be held in much higher regard today.

[Big Al]

Wow! Quite some comments. I love Straight Life as much as any of his Blue Notes, but won't put down the Blue Notes at all. They are all valuable in one way or another.

Although, I have to confess that Hub Cap did nothing for me. The lineup and the arrangements just weren't as happenin' as I thought they would be.

[Noj]

For Lee Morgan I have Cornbread, Leeway, The Sidewinder, Search For The New Land, Tom Cat, The Gigolo, Sonic Boom, The Procrastinator, and The Sixth Sense. For Freddie Hubbard I have Open Sesame, Ready For Freddie, Hub Cap, and Blue Spirits. Freddie has a long way to go in proving to me that his BN output is better than Lee's! I'll be impressed if that is the case when the listening's done.

I sold Hubbard's Hub-Tones and somewhat regret doing so, no matter how clearly I remember being convinced it isn't good.

[DrJ]

Noj, I'd be curious to know, of those Morgan albums, which would you consider to be outstanding (rather than merely good)?

Personally I'd put LEEWAY, THE SIDEWINDER, and possibly THE PROCRASTINATOR in that category. I hedge on PROCRASTINATOR only because after a few stunning compositions it becomes more routine...but it's a strong one and OK, let's keep it in the top flight.

What of the rest? SEARCH FOR THE NEW LAND I've always felt promises far more than it delivers (the title track is, for example, strong at start but ultimately overlong and never does quite reach the peak it suggests). Most of the rest you list are good but not great recordings, and TOM CAT I would say is frankly subpar, Morgan's worst for the label.

Of the Hubbard dates you have (and the one you HAD, HUBTONES) I'd personally say all are classics except for BLUE SPIRITS which is uneven but quite interesting. By my scorecard, Hub way ahead based at the very least based on ratio of great to less than great ones...

Edited December 13, 2004 by DrJ

[wesbed]

This is an interesting discussion. As much as I enjoy Morgan and Hubbard... I can't say which is 'better.' Both are very good at playing their own style. I do believe Hubbard is more 'precise' where Morgan is more 'soulful.'

I'm glad to see somebody sticking up for Hubbard. While I can't knock Morgan, I've never considered Hubbard a less than excellent player.

[Jeffro]

Can anyone recommend a live Hubbard CD? He seems to have lots of them, but I heard one in a record store that sounded great.

Also, what do you folks think of the sessions he did with Woody Shaw (particularly Eternal Triangle)? Maybe I'm easily impressed, but I'm bowled over every time I hear that one.

[LarryCurleyMoe]

I do dig "Blue Spirits" & "Breaking Point" & "Open Sesame" - Freddie's Blue Note output is pretty tasty in general - but "Ready for Freddie" SOARS above the rest! I think some of Freddie's best playing can be found on the Impulse release "The Body & The Soul" - Thermo SMOKES! I also dig Oliver Nelson's "Blues & Abstract Truth" a whole bunch!!!

As to Lee's playing- I find it to be inconsistent as he progressed into the future - The group with Maupin, Meritt, Mabern, and Roker really does it for me as far as later Mogie goes- But I just get the impression that he was TOO STONED to play well towards the end...shot embouchre and not so profound ideas...

BUT - I dig BOTH Freddie and Lee a lot - I imagine it's DAMN HARD to play up to the public's expectations ALL THE TIME! Even Freddie admited (in an article I read) that playing 48 choruses like Coltrane every night took its toll on the ol' CHOPS!

AS FAR AS LIVE FREDDIE IS CONCERNED- I just bought a DVD of Freddie live at the Vanguard - it's top notch IMO - a must see - Freddie is in great form - early 1980's - trim & fit - he's the only horn so he plays his arse off- also nice Cedar Walton, Ron Carter & Lenny White....

Edited December 15, 2004 by LarryCurleyMoe