Jimmy Smith too polished?

[Harold_Z]

The Verves and the Blue Notes had different "aims", with the Verves definitely being more commercial and reaching more for a mass audience. It was a function of the era. I like (love) both bodies of work - I just perceive their intent differently.

Soundwise I know what Soul Stream is saying about presence. JS is definitely more up front and in your face on the Blue Notes, but I'm not sure if that's because the Blue Notes are usually smaller group things or if its a result of multi track recording. I tend to think it's a result of more tracks.

In any event I'm glad for both. Although there is a "sameness" to a lot of Jimmy's recordings there is a corresponding sameness to my reaction. I ALWAYS dig it ! And to that end Jimmy is on my list of "Get it all" people. So is McDuff.

[Jim Alfredson]

Jimmy Smith (he does not read or write music)

I haven't heard this before. Just wondered what was the source. I know I've seen pictures of him w/scores in front of him at recording sessions (the big band stuff I presume.) Of course, he could have been using that as a chord chart.

This seems strange to me, as both of his parents were music instructors from my understanding. And taught him piano in his youth.

I could be wrong on this information. Just curious.

As for the intent of the original thread.... Opinions like his are more the rule than the exception I believe. Sophistication is acquired.

I've always been curious about that statement also, and I've heard it many times. This quote is straight from AMG: He attended the Hamilton School of Music in 1948, and Ornstein School of Music in 1949 and 1950 in Philadelphia. It always seemed to me that if someone spent three years in music school he would at least know the rudiments of sight reading.

←

Totally forgot about this old thread! Concerning Jimmy's ability to read, I believe there was an interview with him in Keyboard magazine... I think ... I know I read it somewhere, where he talked about the Verve big band sessions. I guess one of the first sessions he did... was it Oliver Nelson or Lalo Schiffrin? Anyway, they were running through the tune and the conductor said "Okay, you come in at the B section" and Jimmy said, "Ok". So they run through the tune and they get to the B section and Jimmy is just sitting there, not playing. "What's wrong?" the conductor asks. "Man, just point at me when you want me to play!" says Jimmy!

It's true, both his parents were educators. But I have a friend who took piano lessons all the way through high school who couldn't sight-read a note when he got to college. I saw him give recitals of Chopin and Bach and he couldn't sight-read a note. He learned it all by ear. And there is no doubt that Jimmy's ears were huge. I bet he could've faked his way through any music school.

[CJ Shearn]

Soul Stream, I meant polished musically in relation to the Verve recordings by way of more pop/soul/R&B tunes of the era like "1-2-3" or "Let's Stay Together" I like many of the Verve recordings too, so I thought I might clarify my "crazy talk" hehe.

[Soul Stream]

CJ, I'm glad I didn't have to send the men in white coats for you.

Jim, I don't think any of the great organists could sight read parts. I know McDuff said he couldn't, although he could write and arrange for his band. I know Lonnie said he can't read music at all. Patton could write music, but couldn't just sight read a piece of music and run it down. Tony Monaco said he can't sight read a part, but can write music and read it slowly.

Funny, in the jazz world, I think very few organists and guitarists can read. I remember Peter Bernstein talking about this. Although I think he does read music, he said without big band sight reading experience, few musicians can do that sort of thing. That's why mostly we think of horn players sight reading and classical pianists!

How's the Organissimo crew in this dept?

Edited August 21, 2005 by Soul Stream

[mikeweil]

How's the Organissimo crew in this dept?

←

Risking a ban?

[michel devos]

"Okay, you come in at the B section" and Jimmy said, "Ok". So they run through the tune and they get to the B section and Jimmy is just sitting there, not playing. "What's wrong?" the conductor asks. "Man, just point at me when you want me to play!" says Jimmy!

Sight-reading is one thing, simply counting the beats and the bars is another one....Could anyone seriously believe Jimmy Smith or Jack McDuff were not able to perform such simple tasks, considering their respective musical achievements?

Really hard to believe...

[Soul Stream]

"Okay, you come in at the B section" and Jimmy said, "Ok".  So they run through the tune and they get to the B section and Jimmy is just sitting there, not playing.  "What's wrong?" the conductor asks.  "Man, just point at me when you want me to play!" says Jimmy!

Sight-reading is one thing, simply counting the beats and the bars is another one....Could anyone seriously believe Jimmy Smith or Jack McDuff were not able to perform such simple tasks, considering their respective musical achievements?

Really hard to believe...

←

Might be hard to believe...but those guys came from a different era. Dr. Lonnie Smith is alive and well to tell you he is totally self-taught and cannot read music. McDuff learned chords on the piano as they were shouted out on the bandstand by his leader he said (he played bass initially). So, counting barlines maybe...but for a guy like Smith...he was such a genius (and a comedian, don't take anything he says TOO seriously) I don't doubt the point and play method. I've heard the same stories about Charlie Parker w/strings.

[CJ Shearn]

that's very interesting. Wes Montgomery couldn't read music either, right? Perhaps it could be that back then, such great musicians didn't have access to get help learning such skills?

[Soul Stream]

Erroll Garner as well...lord knows who else. I equate it to this...if you were a kid with a talent for speaking, had no access to books, yet heard great orators on a daily basis in your neighborhood and on recordings...you could be a great speaker without ever having been taught to read a word.

I think reading music is more important today as a jazz musician than it was back in the day of the giants. Today it's an absolute must if you want to really make it. That's just my thought.

Edited August 21, 2005 by Soul Stream

[Michael Fitzgerald]

Quote from "Art Davis Talks To Valerie Wilmer," Jazz News 6/21/61 page

9:

"Of course some people have so much natural talent that they don't

need the training, but as I say, it's only 1%, and off-hand I can only

think of Charlie Parker and Erroll Garner, though Bird could read, of

course, and Erroll can read now."

I think quite a few people who claim they "can't read" music are just slow readers - they can't read quick enough to function in a studio situation.

Mike

[Soul Stream]

Quote from "Art Davis Talks To Valerie Wilmer," Jazz News 6/21/61 page

9:

"Of course some people have so much natural talent that they don't

need the training, but as I say, it's only 1%, and off-hand I can only

think of Charlie Parker and Erroll Garner, though Bird could read, of

course, and Erroll can read now."

I think quite a few people who claim they "can't read" music are just slow readers - they can't read quick enough to function in a studio situation.

Mike

←

Yes, my thoughts exactly. People like to romanticize about these guys' inability to read or write music in any capacity.

[Jim Alfredson]

Well, I can read simple chord charts, like in the real book. I can follow along with bar lines. But as for reading a melody line, (slowly or not) forget about it.

[CJ Shearn]

oh Jim, you suck, you can't read! just kidding I'm not even a musician at all, but I have big ears, I faked thru two years of chorus in highschool by using my ear.

[Harold_Z]

I know McDuff said he couldn't, although he could write and arrange for his band. 

I worked briefly with McDuff in the mid 70s. I saw his charts first hand. They were always in pencil and written very professionaly. Neatly and coherent. At the time I was impressed. I thought it was great small group writing.

[Jim Alfredson]

Regarding Smith's reading abilities, check out his bio on Pete Fallico's page:

http://doodlinlounge.com/Stories/Smith-Jimmy.html

Jimmy left school in the seventh grade to help his dad who was having knee problems. Although he liked school (remembering biology fondly), he never returned and at age fifteen joined the navy. Coming out in 1947, Jimmy used the GI bill to attend the Ornstein's School of Music where he studied bass and piano.

Jimmy didn't read music and remembers how he cleverly hid this fact from his teacher. "She would play a thing by Brahms, maybe a minuet or just a little waltz, and she would say, 'Now James, you think you can read this?' I'd say, 'Yes ma'am.' I hated for her to find out I was just doing it by ear. She'd say, 'James, are you sure you're reading music?'"

[Soul Stream]

I know McDuff said he couldn't, although he could write and arrange for his band. 

I worked briefly with McDuff in the mid 70s. I saw his charts first hand. They were always in pencil and written very professionaly. Neatly and coherent. At the time I was impressed. I thought it was great small group writing.

←

Can you elaborate on working with McDuff, his charts and how he did things? His band and arrangements ALWAYS amaze me.

[Soul Stream]

Well, I can read simple chord charts, like in the real book.  I can follow along with bar lines.  But as for reading a melody line, (slowly or not) forget about it.

←

I'm in the same boat Jim. (actually wish I could read, it's on my 'to do" list in life).

Although, I thought you went to music school with Joe Gloss?

[Harold_Z]

I know McDuff said he couldn't, although he could write and arrange for his band. 

I worked briefly with McDuff in the mid 70s. I saw his charts first hand. They were always in pencil and written very professionaly. Neatly and coherent. At the time I was impressed. I thought it was great small group writing.

←

Can you elaborate on working with McDuff, his charts and how he did things? His band and arrangements ALWAYS amaze me.

←

As I recall, the charts were for Rhythm plus Trumpet and two tenors, although the gig I was on was just the standard quarted with electric bass added. Mac may have had other parts for other situations. He LIKED to write. He had a melodica and would write after the gig some times. The parts I read had a specific bass part, but there were also chord changes and anybody in the rhythm section would have been cool with the same part I read off. None of the parts were xeroxed. Mac hand wrote them all. I was only there a short time. Mac really didn't need or want a bass player. He had just done an (funk) album for Sylvia Robinson's All Platinum label (Frank Prescod played bass on that lp along with Yogi Horton on drums and Billy Jones on guitar - the All Platinum rhythm section) and she wanted him on the road with a bassist to promote that album. I only played on funk tunes, so the standard Organ, Drums, Tenor, and Guitar quartet played all the straight ahead stuff. I sat right next to McDuff when I didn't play and watched him up close. It was a gas for that alone.

Now THERE'S an album that must have sunk like a stone. I've never heard or seen any mention of that lp. All platinum was a big on ripping off the artist label and I don't think McDuff stuck around with them too long. He dug the score and split.

Edited August 21, 2005 by Harold_Z

[Jim Alfredson]

Well, I can read simple chord charts, like in the real book.  I can follow along with bar lines.  But as for reading a melody line, (slowly or not) forget about it.

←

I'm in the same boat Jim. (actually wish I could read, it's on my 'to do" list in life).

Although, I thought you went to music school with Joe Gloss?

←

I was not majoring in music. But I was in every choir I could get in at Michigan State (how did I sing in choir if I couldn't read? Easy... listen to what's going on around you!) and at that time the jazz program was not a major so anyone could get into it if you had some talent.

[Soul Stream]

Harold, what year was that? Were you on the road very long? What was your overall impression of McDuff and working with him? Any standards you remember him doing quite often in his set? I'm always interested in how these guys operated at the club level especially in some of the "off" decades of the organ.

...hey Jim, I couldn't remember the whole story, just that you and Joe were together at school. If only you're choir director could see you n'er-do-wells now. Playing the devil's music in smokey bars.

Edited August 21, 2005 by Soul Stream

[CJ Shearn]

thats what I did in highschool choir too Jim!

[Harold_Z]

Harold, what year was that?  Were you on the road very long?  What was your overall impression of McDuff and working with him?  Any standards you remember him doing quite often in his set?  I'm always interested in how these guys operated at the club level especially in some of the "off" decades of the organ.

←

It had to be 1976 or maybe 1977. It's around 30 years ago and I was only there briefly. McDuff was a nice guy, definitely NOT in the prick band leader category, somewhat of a raconteur, and seemed mainly interested in having a good time. Partying after the gig, etc. After all, he was on the road - away from home ! (at that time he was living at Lenox terrace at 135th and Lenox Ave).

As far as standards, he definitely played them, but those are among the tunes I didn't play on. They were of the the How High The Moon, All The Things You are Ilk, but probably different titles and heads. From my point of view I wanted to play the jazz things, but I was just hired for the LP tunes - of which I remember nothing. (Not to put them down -They were groovy bluesy funk tunes). McDuff didn't want me to bring an amp - he had me going through the pa system and he set the sound and levels. That was kind of a drag, but overall I thought he was a pretty decent guy.

[Soul Stream]

somewhat of a raconteur, and seemed mainly interested in having a good time. Partying after the gig, etc.  After all, he was on the road - away from home  !    (at that time he was living at Lenox terrace at 135th and Lenox Ave).

McDuff didn't want me to bring an amp - he had me going through the pa system and he set the sound and levels. That was kind of a drag, but overall I thought he was a pretty decent guy.

←

This is the stuff I love for some reason. Stuff like, "don't bring an amp." Making you plug into the P.A.... That's pretty wild.

What kind of places were you playing at that time? I can't think of a lower point for jazz organ than the late 70's. Curious as to how Jack was making it at that point.

[Jim Alfredson]

What kind of places were you playing at that time?  I can't think of a lower point for jazz organ than the late 70's.  Curious as to how Jack was making it at that point.

←

What about the 80s?

[Harold_Z]

What kind of places were you playing at that time?  I can't think of a lower point for jazz organ than the late 70's.  Curious as to how Jack was making it at that point.

←

I was on the gig at the Mozambique in Detroit. Mac's next gig was (quartet- I wasn't on it) was in Atlanta at a room I can't remember the name of, but probably someone here will know it. It was in a motel and was pretty well known to the guys on the circuit. It was still going in the 80s and I remember they had a tradition of Sunday afternoon jam sessions.

Financially I don't think there was a hell of a lot going on for Mac then. The rooms on the circuit paid zilch. Sideman pay from Mac was $50 a night (!) and not including rooms and food. I took the gig strictly because it was McDuff. A couple of buddies of mine had been on the gig previously - Drummer Ronnie Davis and guitarist Vinnie Corrao. Ronnie and Vinnie both were on a nice live McDuff lp on Cadet. I think it was called "Check It Out". I think Leo Johnson was on that too.

Anyway, Ronnie had a more negative view of it than Vinnie and kind of advised against even taking the gig, but both guys chalked the gig up to what you put up with to work with a guy like McDuff. IOW, everybody loved the music, but the conditions were basically a drag.

...now that's jazz.......