Rooster_Ties Posted November 7, 2004 Report Share Posted November 7, 2004 (edited) OK people, this is the amazing new release I was hinting about a couple of weeks ago, just before the board went down for a week (and before I disappeared for a week, working night and day on the election). But I managed to send a burn to Sangry about a week ago, and give one to Free For All too. Both of them loved it, and I'll leave it to them to post their thoughts here in this thread. Here's the details about this release, AND where you can get one yourself – for probably a full 4 to 6 weeks before than the rest of the world!!! (see below) Grachan Moncur III - "Exploration" Grachan Moncur III - trombone Gary Bartz - alto sax Billy Harper - tenor sax Gary Smulyan - baritone sax Tim Hagens - trumpet John Clark - french horn Dave Woodley - trombone Ray Drummond - bass Andrew Cyrille - drums 1. Exploration (8:08) 2. Monk In Wonderland (5:23) 3. Love and Hate (8:45) 4. New Africa (9:52) 5. When? (7:32) 6. Frankenstein (6:57) 7. Excursion (2:53) 8. Sonny's Back! (4:13) I believe all the tunes are by Moncur, if I remember correctly (and many of them I traced back to prior Moncur releases). I could wax poetic a great deal about this disc (and probably will, as this thread develops).... But for the moment, let me say that I am WAY more than just pleasantly surprised with how incredible this date is – dare I say "stunning"?? – YES!!! I really liked it the first time I heard it, and it continues to grow on me, more and more, with every listen (probably close to 12 or 15 spins within the last three weeks). Granchan's chops are good, at least to my ears – and the band is really "on". The arrangements, the tunes, and the group interaction are all top drawer. I'll leave it to Sangry and Free For All to help fill in the blanks, but suffice to say that this is -- for me -- as exciting a new release as I've heard in quite some time (at least a couple years). As far as how to get your hands on one before anybody else… A buddy of mine (and of Spontoonious too), for many years used to have a sort of mini-"Dusty Groove" type operation going out of his basement, mail-order only – focusing on progressive jazz, and progressive rock. (And Spontoonious and I have each bought dozens, and dozens, and dozens of CD’s through him, over the years.) He got out of the business for a couple years, but he’s just about to get back in. He’s also a jazz drummer, and a band he used to be in recorded on a small label that’s based in Colorado. Long story, short (too late, I know!!), this Moncur disc is on that same label. And our buddy just got a shipment of the new Moncur CD’s in this week, and has them available for sale about 4 to 6 weeks before they are available anywhere else (and permission to go ahead sell them now). Our friend’s name is James Derigne, and his contact info is… Link: http://www.jazzrecidivists.com (just a front page, at the moment - site is under construction.) e-mail: jrd@jazzrecidivists.com James is selling the disc for $13.50 (which is a couple bucks less than list price, if I remember right), plus $3.50 shipping and handling (within the U.S., probably similar for Canada -- ask him about overseas shipping charges). Since he's just getting his home business off the ground again, he is only accepting checks and money-orders at this time. I’ve known James for nearly 10 years, and I can personally vouch for him, since he's been the source of a mighty scary percentage of my entire jazz collection over the years. Jim Sangry, and Free For All – the floor is yours… Edited November 7, 2004 by Rooster_Ties Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzmoose Posted November 7, 2004 Report Share Posted November 7, 2004 Hell, it's Grachan Moncur...a belch would convince me, and you can owe me the belch! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidewinder Posted November 7, 2004 Report Share Posted November 7, 2004 The line-up looks great and the tune selection is out of his world. I will look out for this one when it wings its way across the Atlantic. Still fanatical over Grachan's Blue Notes (and his contributions to the McLeans) so this is a must-have for me. Even if it is a 'belch'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Chaney Posted November 7, 2004 Report Share Posted November 7, 2004 How's Moncur's chops nowadays? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsgtrane Posted November 7, 2004 Report Share Posted November 7, 2004 I met Moncur around 6 years ago. At that time he said he wanted to try to get back into music. Glad to see it's happened. Lineup and tracklist look great. Plan to order a copy for myself tomorrow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster_Ties Posted November 7, 2004 Author Report Share Posted November 7, 2004 How's Moncur's chops nowadays? I think they sound pretty good on this recording. Or let me put it another way -- I've got no trouble with anybody's chops on this date, and everybody carries their weight (Moncur included). It's hard (at least for me) to tell when Moncur's soloing, vs. the other trombone player (hadn't heard of him before this date). My assumption is that most of the 'bone solos are Moncur, and they all sound good to me -- especially in terms of intonation (which is 90% of the battle, in my book -- for this particular instrument). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted November 7, 2004 Report Share Posted November 7, 2004 This is indeed a fine record. The arrangements and solos posit Moncur firmly withing today's post-hardbop mainstream. Nothing at all on here is even slightly "avant-garde". Harper & Bartz sound great, with Harper showing a mellowness in tone I've not quite heard from here before, and Bartz showing a lot of the old fire that I haven't heard from him in a while. The biggest surprise for me, having been sent the disc w/o personnel, is Cyrille. His mastery of many idioms should by now be self-evident to all who have followed his career, but for some reason I still never think of him as a "potential candidate" for this type of stuff. Foolishness on my part. Let there be no doubt that Andrew Cyrille is a living master! As for Moncur's chops, they sound better than they did on that Reunion Band side of a few years ago, where they sounded pretty sad (I'd go so far as to say tragic, but that's just me), and better than they did on the recent Shepp/Rudd live date, where they souded only slightly better. What's missing from the "glory days" is the "punch", the personal oomph that made his somewhat reductionist approach to the instrument something you had to confront, whether it was to be compelled by it or to be apalled by it. But that was then, and this is now. Knowing the difficulties he's had, I'd not expect him to have the same personality now. Besides, these are different times, and he is 40 years older now. I think he still sounds like Grachan Moncur III, just older and less determined to stubbornly do something "different". What that means is that this album strongly emphasizes the "traditional" elements in Moncur's playing and writing, and you can now hear, I think, how his whole deal was really coming out of the hard bop tradition and language, just trimming a lot of fat, and honing in on very specific elements for each individual piece. To that end, people who either don't like his BN work or who are "hesitant" about it might well consider diving headfirst into this one. I feel pretty certain that if you didn't know it was Moncur's writing and playing, you'd think it was some really hip modern mainstream album. Which is exactly what it is. I'll even go so far as to go out on a very shaky limb and say that, Lon, I think you will enjoy this one! Check it out, y'all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted November 7, 2004 Report Share Posted November 7, 2004 Oh yeah - what label is this on, and who did the arrangements? The arrangements, I think, arewhat will "sell" the record to skeptics. Beautiful, skillful writing, and totally "accesible". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robviti Posted November 7, 2004 Report Share Posted November 7, 2004 (edited) It's hard (at least for me) to tell when Moncur's soloing, vs. the other trombone player (hadn't heard of him before this date). My assumption is that most of the 'bone solos are Moncur, and they all sound good to me -- especially in terms of intonation (which is 90% of the battle, in my book -- for this particular instrument). given the poor state of moncur's chops over the past twenty years (his contribution to the reunion date was indeed tragic), it is not unreasonable to assume that it is woodley, and not moncur, that performs the bone solos. if this is true, i take my hat off to moncur for acknowledging his weaknesses and focusing instead on his strengths as a composer and arranger. btw, woodley has performed in west coast ensembles led lee konitz, pat longo, jack montrose, and in the kenton alumni band. Edited November 7, 2004 by jazzshrink Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted November 7, 2004 Report Share Posted November 7, 2004 I hear plenty Moncur on here, fwiw. That personality unmistakably comes through, as it always has. Like I said, the chops are better than they've been the last few years. I've not listened recently, so Woodley might indeed have some spots on here. But so does Grachan, and let's just say that he doesn't suck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster_Ties Posted November 7, 2004 Author Report Share Posted November 7, 2004 (edited) Oh yeah - what label is this on, and who did the arrangements? I still haven't actually seen a legit copy of the disc, only a white-label promo (so to speak). My source for this release lives about 40 minutes west of me, and I haven't had the chance to get out there and pick up a legit copy for myself yet, which I hope to do maybe this week -- or next. I'm assuming the arrangements are all Moncur's, though I don't know that for sure (so it's anybody's guess at this point). EDIT: Oh, and I used to own that Reunion Legacy date, and man -- Moncur's chops on that thing were just sad, even "beyond sad" (Tolliver's too, but that's another story). This new one is like "night and day" better. Edited November 7, 2004 by Rooster_Ties Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alankin Posted November 7, 2004 Report Share Posted November 7, 2004 Oh yeah - what label is this on [...] ? Capri 74068 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.:.impossible Posted November 7, 2004 Report Share Posted November 7, 2004 I'm surprised. I saw Moncur play in NYC a few months ago and it WAS sad. Jackie almost had to talk him into coming back on stage. His chops sounded beyond rehabilitation, but it took courage to get back out there with Jackie and Hutch. He had a hard time playing his own tunes. I would have been skeptical, but this is good news. Thanks guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster_Ties Posted November 7, 2004 Author Report Share Posted November 7, 2004 (edited) Harper & Bartz sound great, with Harper showing a mellowness in tone I've not quite heard from here before, and Bartz showing a lot of the old fire that I haven't heard from him in a while. Just wanted to mention how impressed I was with Harper and Bartz on this date. (Not that I've ever not been impressed by Harper), but Jim's right -- this is a different side of Harper, and one I'm not very familiar with -- and I really like it. Much more introspective than I'm used to from him. And Bartz digs in deeper than I've heard from him in a number of years. But fans of Harper, in particular, will find lots to like -- and lots to hear from him, but from a new perspective. Also, it sounds like Mark Masters did the arrangements on the new Moncur disc. Found this quote HERE, from an interview with Masters... A significant problem that musicians face is the difficulty of staying current in the public's (as well as the jazz journalist's) eye. Without tangible recorded proof of what a musician is currently playing he can drift from the limelight. One such musician is trombonist and composer Grachan Moncur III. Over the past two decades, Grachan has been teaching as well as doing some playing, though he has not had a record to speak of in many, many years. However, as a player - and especially composer - Grachan is a singular voice. Thanks recently to Mosaic Records, his two long out of print Blue Note recordings (Evolution and Some Other Stuff), as well as his classic '60s recordings with Jackie McLean, have been reissued on CD (his French recordings on BYG also have thankfully become currently available). It occurred to us that Grachan's music deserved to be heard in an orchestral context. He and I [meaning Masters -- RT] spent some time together on the phone during the past year and the result is Exploration: The Grachan Moncur III Octet (due out this fall on Capri). With his input I wrote orchestrations on seven of his tunes and while his music is both inside and out - it proved to be a timeless framework for the individual's improvisations. Edited November 13, 2004 by Rooster_Ties Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted November 8, 2004 Report Share Posted November 8, 2004 I have the Masters/Harper side on Capri. Good arranger, he is. Doesn't surprise me, then, that these charts are as they are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlhoots Posted November 8, 2004 Report Share Posted November 8, 2004 Ordered my copy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertrand Posted November 8, 2004 Report Share Posted November 8, 2004 Off the top of my head, 'Excursion' is the only song title that is not familiar to me. Anybody know where this comes from? Thanks, Bertrand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted November 8, 2004 Report Share Posted November 8, 2004 Listened again last night and feel the need to "clarify" a few of my earlier comments, First of all Moncur's chops don't really sound "strong". But he is able to execute what he tries to plat, which is more than can be said about the Reunion Band date. It's to his credit, I think, that he "stays within himself" in this regard. Second, all the trombone solos are by Moncur, I'm sure. Woodley might participate in the collective improv portions that a few of the charts have, but doesn't play any solos as such, at least not that I can remember sitting here now. It makes sense really - if Grachan's chops are tenuous, why have him play ensemble parts? Better to get sombody whose tone & intonation won't present a possible problem un that regard. Thirdly, my statement that "Nothing at all on here is even slightly "avant-garde" might be a little biased based on my own tastes. There are moments of colloective improvisation on this record (not a lot, though), and some of the voicings are pretty pointed and clustery in spots. Now, to my ears, that's been going on for over 40 years, and has been incorporated into today's "modern mainstream", but for anybody who still finds such things distasteful, I think it only fair to note that they will be found here, if in relatively small measure. Really, though, the writing could have been done by Oliver Nelson in the mid-1960s for one of his "non-commercial" assignments. Think Rudd's writing on FOUR FOR TRANE filtered through, say, Nelson's ALFIE charts, and you get the idea. What's NOT here are the out-of-tempo/pointillistic/etc works of Moncur that have turned off those who need a steady beat in their music. This stuff's all in time, and it all swings. The only exception would be the brief 'Excursion' , which sounds like it might be a collective improv. But other than that, you got a nice, taut, sometimes dark, sometimes prickly collection of swinging jazz. Actually, the entire side would not have seemed too "avant-garde" even in 1965, It might have seemed "edgy" or some such, but there's certainly nothing here that would have seemed "out" even then. "Progressive", maybe, but that's it. And it's now 2004, so... Other than that, nothing's changed about my opinion. A very good record, great writing, fine playing by all concerned (John clark sounds great too, and Tim Hagans continues to be the man of many faces, none of them predictable), and a welcome return to activity by one of the most interesting (for me) jazz composers of the last half-century. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
relyles Posted November 8, 2004 Report Share Posted November 8, 2004 Just sent a check out to James today. Looking forward to hearing this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsgtrane Posted November 8, 2004 Report Share Posted November 8, 2004 Just sent a check out to James today. Looking forward to hearing this one. Ditto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDK Posted November 8, 2004 Report Share Posted November 8, 2004 Thirdly, my statement that "Nothing at all on here is even slightly "avant-garde" might be a little biased based on my own tastes. No worries, Jim. "Slightly avant-garde" is one of my favorite styles. I appreciate the heads up on this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster_Ties Posted November 10, 2004 Author Report Share Posted November 10, 2004 Just picked up my own, legit copy. (Wasn't able to scan the cover, sorry.) Nothing too surprising in the liner-notes, but every soloist is identified, tune by tune. And FYI, Moncur is the trombone soloist 99% of the time. Woodley has but one two-bar solo, at the end of Frankenstein (as part of a series of two-bar solos by Bartz, then Woodley, then Clark, and finally Bartz again). Other than that, every other 'bone solo is Moncur. The group is billed as the Grachan Moncur III Octet, so that kinda explains that Woodley and Moncur are, collectively speaking, only one voice (never playing at the same time), since there are nine players on the date. Mark Masters did the arrangements, and conducted. The recording is somehow related to the American Jazz Institue (they're billed as "presenting" the recording, and they appear to own the copyright too). The source of every tune is given in the liners, which give a nice overview of Moncur's career, and discussion of his style. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertrand Posted November 10, 2004 Report Share Posted November 10, 2004 What do they say the source for 'Excursion' is? Thanks, Bertrand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster_Ties Posted November 10, 2004 Author Report Share Posted November 10, 2004 (edited) What do they say the source for 'Excursion' is? "Excursion" is a relatively short (2:53) collective-improv thing. No real themes that I noticed, just everybody blowing. Moncur gets the composer credit, and probably gave everybody some rough instructions, or maybe even specific lines for people to play?? (or 'shapes' of lines??). Not a real 'composition' (or 'tune'), in the traditional sense. Edited November 10, 2004 by Rooster_Ties Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsgtrane Posted November 12, 2004 Report Share Posted November 12, 2004 My copy just showed up in today's mail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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