The end of Easytree

[Michael Fitzgerald]

Jesus - what is not getting across here? Whether I have said material or not isn't the issue. Whether YOU see "nothing wrong" with sharing unreleased material isn't the issue. You have your own personal definition of "respecting the artist". Fine. Great. The artist's lawyers have their definition. Fine. Great. But when you say, "You can argue about copyrights all you want, but these sites were diligent in respecting copyright. They'd delete anything that had one," you are pretending that somehow the site was legit. It wasn't (at least not in the U.S. - I'm not going to address anywhere else that may have different laws). Now, you may not like the implication that you are a criminal when you exceed the posted speed limit, but that's how it is.

Mike

[AfricaBrass]

Jesus - what is not getting across here? Whether I have said material or not isn't the issue. Whether YOU see "nothing wrong" with sharing unreleased material isn't the issue. You have your own personal definition of "respecting the artist". Fine. Great. The artist's lawyers have their definition. Fine. Great. But when you say, "You can argue about copyrights all you want, but these sites were diligent in respecting copyright. They'd delete anything that had one," you are pretending that somehow the site was legit. It wasn't (at least not in the U.S. - I'm not going to address anywhere else that may have different laws). Now, you may not like the implication that you are a criminal when you exceed the posted speed limit, but that's how it is.

Mike

You're right. The law is the law.

It doesn't make it right IMO, but it's the law. I won't argue that with you.

This is why I do appreciate artists that have allowed sites like archive.org to post recordings of their shows. I hope more will do so in the future.

[AfricaBrass]

[ghost of miles]

Time for your bread & water, AB! I understand where Mike's coming from, though. It's a sensitive issue for jazz artists in particular, who have rarely gotten the money they should have from recordings. The whole brouhaha with the Roscoe material getting put up there not long ago is a good example; and though Easytree may have acted with haste to take it down, it's still unfortunate & detrimental to artists' livelihoods.

[AfricaBrass]

Time for your bread & water, AB! I understand where Mike's coming from, though. It's a sensitive issue for jazz artists in particular, who have rarely gotten the money they should have from recordings. The whole brouhaha with the Roscoe material getting put up there not long ago is a good example; and though Easytree may have acted with haste to take it down, it's still unfortunate & detrimental to artists' livelihoods.

I agree. That's why I backed down.

I really want artists or their descendants to get what's coming to them. I'd be happy to purchase recordings from the artists or the family if they were made available for download. I'm just sad to see Easytree go because it made music available that few have heard or ever will hear.

Having said that, I'd be surprised if the lawyers that went after Easytree represented any artists in the first place. My guess is that they represent the big record companies, of which many have shown a complete lack of concern for the artist or the consumer. But, I do see how this stuff can hurt the smaller labels like Chuck's, and that's something I don't want to happen.

[Big Wheel]

The problem is that these sites are BitTorrent trackers, and are never even in possession of the material at hand. They only serve as meeting places. Some things there are completely legit and authorized. Some aren't. People here use the PM system all the time, I'm sure, for facilitating the trading this kind of stuff. Is that an argument for shutting the whole board down? If not, then what is the difference that would make this site "legit" and BitTorrent tracker sites "not legit"?

Edited April 6, 2005 by Big Wheel

[Jazzmoose]

Where do we get our FREE CAT SHATNER Tshirts?

[Chuck Nessa]

Where do we get our FREE CAT SHATNER Tshirts?

I can supply those.

[AfricaBrass]

Where do we get our FREE CAT SHATNER Tshirts?

I can supply those.

Hey! I got a copyright on those...

[AfricaBrass]

You're right. The law is the law.

It doesn't make it right IMO, but it's the law. I won't argue that with you.

Jeff, you know everything is black OR white dontcha?

I know.

That's why my personal ethics have a lot of room for the grey area, yet I admit that there are laws that go against what I believe to be right, and in the end my opinion is worth jack squat. It is difficult to respect the law when our own leaders use and abuse it, though.

I just wish the law would crack down on all the speeders where I live...

This is the type of black and white that I like to see.

Balance.

Edited April 6, 2005 by AfricaBrass

[Chuck Nessa]

Where do we get our FREE CAT SHATNER Tshirts?

I can supply those.

Hey! I got a copyright on those...

Doesn't bother us here at EasyTee.

[AfricaBrass]

Where do we get our FREE CAT SHATNER Tshirts?

I can supply those.

Hey! I got a copyright on those...

Doesn't bother us here at EasyTee.

Actually Cat Shatner's head came from a picture of someone's cat I found on a Google image search and the shirt came from an old picture of Captain Kirk...

I'm the copyright infringer!!!!

Back to the slammer for me...

[JSngry]

Well, call me crusty and wipe me with a moist towelette, but I do see a difference between collectors trading such material as this privately and providing it "publicly" online. Maybe it's just a difference "in principal", and maybe its a moot point anymore, what with the Instanet and all, but I see a difference nevertheless. Several differences, actually...

Not that I'm above availing myself of certain "opportunities" when they present themselves (haven't yet figured out how to do the bit-torrent thing, though), but when said opportunities are removed, I can't say that I'm surprised and/or disappointed either.

Contrary to the promises of the Utopianet, "we're" not "entitled" to have whatever we want whenever we want it, and not everybody "needs" such material to an equal extent.

Call me an elitist or some such, but that's how I feel.

[RDK]

Doesn't bother us here at EasyTee.

Absolutely GREAT Chuck!!

I get the feeling that Chuck was waiting all day for an opening to use that one!

[AfricaBrass]

Crusty!

Actually, this will really help those Usenet providers that charge $25/month for unlimited downloads...

[king ubu]

Well, call me crusty and wipe me with a moist towelette, but I do see a difference between collectors trading such material as this privately and providing it "publicly" online. Maybe it's just a difference "in principal", and maybe its a moot point anymore, what with the Instanet and all, but I see a difference nevertheless. Several differences, actually...

Not that I'm above availing myself of certain "opportunities" when they present themselves (haven't yet figured out how to do the bit-torrent thing, though), but when said opportunities are removed, I can't say that I'm surprised and/or disappointed either.

Contrary to the promises of the Utopianet, "we're" not "entitled" to have whatever we want whenever we want it, and not everybody "needs" such material to an equal extent.

Call me an elitist or some such, but that's how I feel.

Jim, I fully agree with you! It's definitely not like that we should have whatever we want. However, the crowd over at EZtree was very generous, very open-minded, and certainly ready for taking critique, too (some of the same points we discuss here were in fact discussed over there, too, now and then).

Still, even if through this site I got much more than I ever deserved, I regret it's gone now.

[relyles]

Well, call me crusty and wipe me with a moist towelette, but I do see a difference between collectors trading such material as this privately and providing it "publicly" online. Maybe it's just a difference "in principal", and maybe its a moot point anymore, what with the Instanet and all, but I see a difference nevertheless. Several differences, actually...

I am sensing this may be a reason why sites like sharing the groove and easytree may have come under attack while on the other hand snail mail trading sites like the yahoo all jazz group has been able to operate for about two and a half years unimpeded. I have a recollection back on STG of an artist ( I think it was John Scofield), who did not mind people taping and trading his performances, but he did not want this same recordings shared electronically over the internet. I suppose the potential negative impact to the artist (assuming there really is one) increases when the music is distributed to an unlimited number of people in a short amount of time via a device like bit torrent as opposed to how long it would take for the same number of people to obtain a copy of that recording via one on one trading.

[sheldonm]

...you're goin' to jail, dude!

[RDK]

Well, call me crusty and wipe me with a moist towelette, but I do see a difference between collectors trading such material as this privately and providing it "publicly" online. Maybe it's just a difference "in principal", and maybe its a moot point anymore, what with the Instanet and all, but I see a difference nevertheless. Several differences, actually...

Not that I'm above availing myself of certain "opportunities" when they present themselves (haven't yet figured out how to do the bit-torrent thing, though), but when said opportunities are removed, I can't say that I'm surprised and/or disappointed either.

Contrary to the promises of the Utopianet, "we're" not "entitled" to have whatever we want whenever we want it, and not everybody "needs" such material to an equal extent.

Call me an elitist or some such, but that's how I feel.

Well, certainly the ease with which one can "trade" such material has improved by "instanet" technology, but this is really nothing that hasn't been going on for decades in the "collectors" circles. It seems to me that bit-torrenting has leveled the playing field more than a little and opened up some of this rare material - that, in most cases, will never see a legit release - to those fans who are less "connected." I often sensed a certain, let's say elitism among some traders who would boldly boast about all the rare shows they've heard but were unwilling to "share" with anyone unless one could deliver something equally rare in return. Fair enough, I guess, but sites like STG and Easytree enabled a certain egalitarianism that helped level the playing field. "Sharing" was indeed the name of the game there, evinced by the fact that the most hated ones of all were not the RIAA but those who actually sold the bootlegged material (and like Michael, I'm fully aware that most of this material wasn't strictly legal).

EZT may be dead, but another site will undoubtedly rise up in its place. It may be a bit harder to share for a while, but one way or another it will go on. Meanwhile, the only ones who will be profitting are those who sell the bootlegged CDs on Ebay or on street corners.

[sheldonm]

Where do we get our FREE CAT SHATNER Tshirts?

I can supply those.

Hey! I got a copyright on those...

...since when did you care about copyrights !

[Tom Storer]

The fact that performers own the intellectual property inherent in their own performance, hence rightfully control distribution of concert recordings, was always the elephant in the room at EZT. It's undeniable that you don't have the right to distribute concert performances without the artist's express permission. That is why, when a lawyer knocked at the door, the EZT folks put up no fight and politely pulled the plug.

Personally, I don't see the difference that Jim does between "private" postal distribution of this stuff and "public" Internet sharing of it. The only difference is in speed of distribution: quantity, not kind. There was lots of beautiful stuff being shared and people were discovering new artists all the time. Just the other day there was a recent Terence Blanchard concert up and comments included "Wow! I didn't know he was this good! What CDs would you recommend by him?" Whereas MP3 trading represents a loss of a sale, concert trading doesn't, so my own reaction was to recognize a legitimate (in my view) fan interest that didn't really negatively impact the artist's wallet.

Other examples include the Ornette Coleman completists who put up every unreleased scrap they could find from the past forty years, whether shitty-sounding audience tapes or FM broadcasts or whatever. They turned me on to the second version of Prime Time, when Ornette added a pianist, a period I had completely overlooked. I ordered the CD. I think that happened a hell of a lot.

But as Mike says, all that doesn't make it legal. I think it does make it right, or mostly, anyway. Or at least not harmful.

[Tom Storer]

Very disappointing. The pile of shows that I was planning to seed was growing. Oh well, suppose I will just have to vine them at the yahoo jazz vines group.

Oh--do you mean this group?

[jazzbo]

Jim, I think I'm going to call you "some such."

Just for the hell of it!

[Big Wheel]

Well, call me crusty and wipe me with a moist towelette, but I do see a difference between collectors trading such material as this privately and providing it "publicly" online. Maybe it's just a difference "in principal", and maybe its a moot point anymore, what with the Instanet and all, but I see a difference nevertheless. Several differences, actually...

Not that I'm above availing myself of certain "opportunities" when they present themselves (haven't yet figured out how to do the bit-torrent thing, though), but when said opportunities are removed, I can't say that I'm surprised and/or disappointed either.

Contrary to the promises of the Utopianet, "we're" not "entitled" to have whatever we want whenever we want it, and not everybody "needs" such material to an equal extent.

Call me an elitist or some such, but that's how I feel.

Certainly I'm not surprised either by the shutdowns, though I'll admit to being a bit disappointed--you could amass in weeks a collection that took the old elite collectors years. While I definitely don't feel entitled to the possession of that material, I still wish that I could hear it.

To me it comes down to how you define "provide." Easytree did not host the material. It only created a space where it was easy for you to connect to other people who had the material. The programs on your computer and those people's computers did all the trading. Moreover, the registration requirement added a degree of privacy to the whole business, although you could certainly argue that there wasn't very much of it.

[relyles]

Very disappointing.  The pile of shows that I was planning to seed was growing.  Oh well, suppose I will just have to vine them at the yahoo jazz vines group.

Oh--do you mean this group?