Baseball 2005

[Chalupa]

GO PHILS!!!!

[ghost of miles]

Yanks better win today... I know Schilling has been less than spectacular, but Mussina has been even more less (?!) than spectacular.

[Chalupa]

JRo hitting streak now at 35 games. Go Phils!!! (and Cubs!)

[ghost of miles]

Yanks are in the playoffs!

[Dan Gould]

You needn't have worried.

And there's your answer, Marty: regardless of tomorrow's outcome, you win the East.

Not that it explains whatever the fuck their rules are that allows that outcome. I think the whole idea is to minimize extra play-off games to keep everything on schedule. I mean, as of yesterday, splitting the last two games meant a one-game play-off in the Bronx, and because of a result that doesn't even involve division teams, the Yanks win even if the Sox win tomorrow?

WTF????

As infuriating and sickening as it is to see this outcome, at least I know that all we have to do is win one out of two, at home to go to the dance again, and in the end, that is what matters.

Hell, I'd rather face the White Sox than a rested and very talented Angels team in the first round.

But it sure as hell pisses the FUCK out of me that because of Foulke and Schilling, the Yanks enjoy yet another AL East crown. Forget Schilling's troubles - it was known that it would take some time to regain his form. The fact is that the team TOLD Foulke to have surgery the minute he showed up at Spring Training. He said no, and the end result is that a race that shouldn't have been close went to the Evil Empire.

[Dan Gould]

And now its going to be Jaret Wright to start against Schilling, and Mussina to start the first playoff game???

Oh, I just know all the Yankee fans here are just thrilled with that news.

[bluesForBartok]

I'm not sure about this David Wells thing 

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How do ya like me now?????

Yes I did say that some months back didn't I?

I actually had the good fortune of scoring tickets for last night's game and made the trek up to Boston. Fenway was electric to say the least and Wells pitched a great game (the Bullpen and especially Mike Timlin were equally brilliant last night) as he has done for the most part all season. I had my doubts when they signed him as I always believed him to be a Yankee down to his bone marrow but as the season comes to an end, I am now a convert.

As frustrating as it is to once again concede the AL East title to the Yanks it occured to me that the final standings have become much closer over the last several years:

2002

New York Yankees -- 103 - 58

Boston Red Sox -- 93 - 69 || 10.5 GB

2003

New York Yankees -- 101 - 61

Boston Red Sox -- 95 - 67 || 6 GB

2004

New York Yankees -- 101 - 61

Boston Red Sox -- 98 - 64 || 3 GB

2005

New York Yankees -- 95 - 66

Boston Red Sox -- 94 - 67 || 1 GB <--- could be dead even tomorrow or 2GB

Looking at the above standings tells me that the Sox have maintained relative consistency(had the pitching been 100% healthy I believe they would have broken 100 games in the win column and taken the East) while the Yankees are in a rapid decline. Is the Yankees Dynasty in it's twilight? Personally I think so. Their lack of WS Titles over the last 4 years speaks volumes as well. As their veteran players start to drop off over the next few years I think they are going to have increasingly weaker teams and lesser prominence in the standings.

The same scenario could be argued for the Soxs' future but I think Theo Epstein and the new regime behind the Red Sox have done a better job than Stenibrenner's camp with regard to looking ahead for the long term future of their respective organizations.

The Sox may or may not make the playoffs this year. If they don't I can live with it knowing that they will be back next year and for years to come as a serious contender.

The Yankees are in and congratulations to them and all their fans. They played with a lot of guts this year to claw their way back up. Are they gonna get past Chicago, Los Angeles, poss. Cleveland / Boston and beat St. Louis in the World Series???

I don't think so.

[MartyJazz]

And now its going to be Jaret Wright to start against Schilling, and Mussina to start the first playoff game???

Oh, I just know all the Yankee fans here are just thrilled with that news. 

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Actually, here's one Yankee fan who isn't thrilled with that news. If it were me managing this team, I would do all I can to knock the Red Sox out of the playoff picture. Go with your best and perhaps you beat the Red Sox tomorrow while the Indians win forcing a one game playoff between the Bosox and Tribe. If the Tribe wins, Red Sox go home and I would think the Yanks would welcome the prospect of not seeing them again. Besides, the Indians have a right to expect that we try to win Sunday's game. Plus there would be no controversy if the Yanks win the division outright by virtue of having a better overall record rather than just a 10-9 edge in the head to head games. But I guess this isn't the way things work.

All in all, as Dan knows from personal conversations earlier this summer, I am very surprised that the Yanks were able to win the division this year. They were 11-19 after the first 30 games and really looked like shit. Perhaps Torre is the best manager, Dan, eh?

[Dan Gould]

All in all, as Dan knows from personal conversations earlier this summer, I am very surprised that the Yanks were able to win the division this year.  They were 11-19 after the first 30 games and really looked like shit.  Perhaps Torre is the best manager, Dan, eh?

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No way at all.

Cashman as GM of the year? Maybe. He certainly has more to do with the end result than anything Torre has done. I'm so sick of this St. Joe treatment he gets. You catch lightning in a bottle with a career minor leaguer (how the hell do you spell that word?), get lucky again with a Coors reject, and the ultimate bit of luck, your rivals lose their two most important pitchers for essentially the entire season.

Here's a thought experiment: Where are the Yankees if Randy Johnson has fewer than 12 starts, three wins as a starter and an ERA near 6? Where are the Yankees if Rivera has an ERA over 6, blows saves and loses games left and right and is then shut down with half a season to go?

NOWHERE

But that exact same thing happened to the Red Sox, and Francona has the team on the verge of the playoffs.

The inescapable conclusion is that Francona has a greater claim to Manager of the Year than Torre. And in fact, there's a New York Times columnist who says the same thing.

[Dan Gould]

As frustrating as it is to once again concede the AL East title to the Yanks it occured to me that the final standings have become much closer over the last several years:

2002

New York Yankees -- 103 - 58

Boston Red Sox -- 93 - 69 || 10.5 GB

2003

New York Yankees -- 101 - 61

Boston Red Sox -- 95 - 67 || 6 GB

2004

New York Yankees -- 101 - 61

Boston Red Sox -- 98 - 64 || 3 GB

2005

New York Yankees -- 95 - 66

Boston Red Sox -- 94 - 67 || 1 GB <--- could be dead even tomorrow or 2GB

Looking at the above standings tells me that the Sox have maintained relative consistency(had the pitching been 100% healthy I believe they would have broken 100 games in the win column and taken the East) while the Yankees are in a rapid decline. Is the Yankees Dynasty in it's twilight? Personally I think so. Their lack of WS Titles over the last 4 years speaks volumes as well.  As their veteran players start to drop off over the next few years I think they are going to have increasingly weaker teams and lesser prominence in the standings.

The same scenario could be argued for the Soxs' future but I think Theo Epstein and the new regime behind the Red Sox have done a better job than Stenibrenner's camp with regard to looking ahead for the long term future of their respective organizations.

The Sox may or may not make the playoffs this year. If they don't I can live with it knowing that they will be back next year and for years to come as a serious contender.

The Yankees are in and congratulations to them and all their fans. They played with a lot of guts this year to claw their way back up. Are they gonna get past Chicago, Los Angeles, poss. Cleveland / Boston and beat St. Louis in the World Series???

I don't think so.

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Neither of the AL East contenders are Championship calibre. That's what makes this failure to beat the Yanks in the East so frustrating.

But you are right that the Yankee regime is in rapid descent. Prediction: Next player to calcify in the middle of a game will be Jorge Posada. I am so glad that Bernie Williams stayed in New York, or the Sox wouldn't have Damon, and it would be Williams who was getting overpaid and rapidly collapsing the last three years.

And you are also right about the difference in club adherence to player development. I predict that in 2006, pitchers John Papelbon, Craig Hansen and Jon Lester will all make significant contributions. No later than 2007, infielders Dustin Pedroia and Hanley Ramirez will also be budding stars.

This team has one of the best stocked minor leagues in the game, and while that bodes very well for the future, it unfortunately means that this is the last hurrah for many out of this group of players. Mueller and Millar are definitely gone, and I won't be surprised if Manny is gone too.

Youklis is your starting third baseman next year, and if Damon is lost, they need to pick up an equally dynamic centerfielder-sparkplug. If Manny goes, at least I am confident they will not give him away like it looked in July. I've heard rumors about the Mets trading for Delgado and swapping him for Manny - that would solve first base and give protection for Papi. I've also heard of swapping Beltran for Manny, and I'd go for that, too, because Beltran could go back to being a star among stars instead of having all that pressure as the co-saviour of the Mets.

There's one big regret I'd have about letting Manny go: He and Papi have now tied a couple of guys named Gehrig and Ruth for consecutive seasons with 40 homers and 140 RBIs. There's no reason they shouldn't do that for a record third time next season, if the Sox don't send Manny away.

The only thing that can stall the Yankee decline is signing Damon, and I just don't see that happening.

[MartyJazz]

Damon would be a whole lot better looking as a Yankee.

But I agree, it ain't happening. For one thing, I would think that the Yanks would like a centerfielder with an arm.

Torre is a HOF manager, period. The only way Francona and he sit at the same table is for a Sunday late afternoon pasta dinner.

[Soulstation1]

GO TRIBE AND GO YANKEES

if the bosox and tribe are tied where will the play-off game be?

Edited October 2, 2005 by Soulstation1

[Chalupa]

A friend of mine calls him FranCOMA.

[Dan Gould]

Damon would be a whole lot better looking as a Yankee.

But I agree, it ain't happening.  For one thing, I would think that the Yanks would like a centerfielder with an arm.

Torre is a HOF manager, period.  The only way Francona and he sit at the same table is for a Sunday late afternoon pasta dinner.

←

A HoF manager for results, or actual influence on the results???

Can anyone identify a critical decision Torre made in a post-season game to win it? Ever?

I know its all about the results, and I don't begrudge the honor he'll receive after he retires. But if Torre is honest, the first thing he will say is, "I'd like to thank George Steinbrenner's wallet for making this day necessary. Otherwise, I'd have had the same results as I did in Atlanta, and I'd have been out of baseball 20 years ago."

[Adam]

As frustrating as it is to once again concede the AL East title to the Yanks it occured to me that the final standings have become much closer over the last several years:

2002

New York Yankees -- 103 - 58

Boston Red Sox -- 93 - 69 || 10.5 GB

2003

New York Yankees -- 101 - 61

Boston Red Sox -- 95 - 67 || 6 GB

2004

New York Yankees -- 101 - 61

Boston Red Sox -- 98 - 64 || 3 GB

2005

New York Yankees -- 95 - 66

Boston Red Sox -- 94 - 67 || 1 GB <--- could be dead even tomorrow or 2GB

Looking at the above standings tells me that the Sox have maintained relative consistency(had the pitching been 100% healthy I believe they would have broken 100 games in the win column and taken the East) while the Yankees are in a rapid decline. Is the Yankees Dynasty in it's twilight? Personally I think so. Their lack of WS Titles over the last 4 years speaks volumes as well.  As their veteran players start to drop off over the next few years I think they are going to have increasingly weaker teams and lesser prominence in the standings.

I would argue that the evidence indicates that the Yankees are in very gradual decline, not rapid decline. A change in their season record of 7 or 8 fewer wins (depending on today) over 4 years? That's almost nothing. And every year over 90 wins? I'd say they are still one of the leading teams in baseball. And I hate 'em as well.

Rapid decline would be 101-61 one year, and 70-92 the following year. Let's not exaggerate just because they're from NY. :-)

Go Angels!

Edited October 2, 2005 by Adam

[MartyJazz]

A HoF manager for results, or actual influence on the results???

Can anyone identify a critical decision Torre made in a post-season game to win it?  Ever?

I know its all about the results, and I don't begrudge the honor he'll receive after he retires.  But if Torre is honest, the first thing he will say is, "I'd like to thank George Steinbrenner's wallet for making this day necessary.  Otherwise, I'd have had the same results as I did in Atlanta, and I'd have been out of baseball 20 years ago."

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Yeah, Steinbrenner's wallet is no doubt very important for Yankee success. But I think that you really underestimate the importance of a manager, particularly behind the scenes. No matter what mix of players Torre is given to work with, they all seem to play to the maximum of their ability, unless that ability is eroded due to age or physical decline (see Kevin Brown). You never. or perhaps I should say, rarely, hear complaints from a player about how he is being used or about how the manager doesn't communicate well (see A.J. Burnett and Jack McKeon), or demands from anyone to be traded, etc. Rarely any disruption, everyone keyed into the same goal year in and year out. That has a lot to do with the tone and interpersonal skills of the manager. Lots of teams have spent money over the past few years, e.g., the Orioles, the Dodgers, without accomplishing a thing. Ask Theo Epstein if he would trade Francona for Torre - you know what the answer would be.

[BERIGAN]

All in all, as Dan knows from personal conversations earlier this summer, I am very surprised that the Yanks were able to win the division this year.  They were 11-19 after the first 30 games and really looked like shit.  Perhaps Torre is the best manager, Dan, eh?

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No way at all.

Cashman as GM of the year? Maybe. He certainly has more to do with the end result than anything Torre has done. I'm so sick of this St. Joe treatment he gets. You catch lightning in a bottle with a career minor leaguer (how the hell do you spell that word?), get lucky again with a Coors reject....

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(If this seems a bit of a jumbled mess, I was watching the scrabble tournament on ESPN )

Dan, about that Coors reject..True, didn't win much, but had an E.R.A. of 4.09 with is REALLY good in that stadium, with not so hot defense behind him...most teams should have been beating down the door to the dumb Colorado G.M. office if they had known they were going to give away one of their best pitchers. 5.46 and 5.68 are the E.R.A.s of their "best" starters at the end of the season (guys who pitched the most innings)

You may be right about Cashman as GM of the year, bet they thought they would get 15 wins out of Jaret Wright, not 5. And that hot headed, forever injured Kevin Brown's ERA went from 4.09 to 6.50 this year...they have had some terrible pitching as well, but you are right, not from the closer....

I think Torre has to be a HOF Manager, because of his skill as well as George's millions!

Lots of very talented teams still manage to lose. I don't think many teams can come back from an 11 and 19 record(there was some espn column talking about how the statistical odds were really against them doing this)

Hell, there are still many Braves fans that think if we would only get rid of Bobby Cox, we could really win in the playoffs...(Yes, he does make stupid decisions in the playoffs, but the last 14 division winning teams have not all been that talented either)

Hey, where would your team be if the brilliant Minnesota Twins hadn't been so nice as to gift wrap some guy, forget his name...they released him....

Edited October 2, 2005 by BERIGAN

[Dan Gould]

A HoF manager for results, or actual influence on the results???

Can anyone identify a critical decision Torre made in a post-season game to win it?  Ever?

I know its all about the results, and I don't begrudge the honor he'll receive after he retires.  But if Torre is honest, the first thing he will say is, "I'd like to thank George Steinbrenner's wallet for making this day necessary.  Otherwise, I'd have had the same results as I did in Atlanta, and I'd have been out of baseball 20 years ago."

←

Yeah, Steinbrenner's wallet is no doubt very important for Yankee success. But I think that you really underestimate the importance of a manager, particularly behind the scenes. No matter what mix of players Torre is given to work with, they all seem to play to the maximum of their ability, unless that ability is eroded due to age or physical decline (see Kevin Brown). You never. or perhaps I should say, rarely, hear complaints from a player about how he is being used or about how the manager doesn't communicate well (see A.J. Burnett and Jack McKeon), or demands from anyone to be traded, etc. Rarely any disruption, everyone keyed into the same goal year in and year out. That has a lot to do with the tone and interpersonal skills of the manager. Lots of teams have spent money over the past few years, e.g., the Orioles, the Dodgers, without accomplishing a thing. Ask Theo Epstein if he would trade Francona for Torre - you know what the answer would be.

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Is Torre enamored of statistical analysis and its use in game decisions? Does he keep his laptop with him at all times? Actually, Francona is precisely the manager that Theo looked for, which is why the interviews with other candidates were pro forma. If the Yankees fired Torre the Red Sox would be in no rush to can Francona and grab Joe. The Mets, on the other hand ...

As to your claim that

"You never. or perhaps I should say, rarely, hear complaints from a player about how he is being used or about how the manager doesn't communicate well"

I direct your attention to quite a few of the pitchers in this year's Yankee bullpen, at least one of whom went public about the way he was used, and then released. Remember the comments about "if you're not one of Joe's guys ..."? Now, that pitcher may have pitched his way out of the Bronx, but he sure as hell isn't sending Torre a Christmas card. I don't see any great "interpersonal skills," I see a guy handed a team of all-stars who are indoctrinated into a win at all costs mentality from the top down of the organization.

The credit I give Torre is ... damn I thought I could come up with something.

Maybe calmness in the storm that the SS Steinbrenner always goes through?

That's about it.

[MartyJazz]

Your dislike of the Yankees has clouded your judgment, IMO. Name me a manager who would have been able to survive for this long a period under Steinbrenner, much less won as consistently as Torre has. You severely underestimate Torre's managerial skills and discount factors that make him the best there is. Enough from me on this issue.

[Quincy]

Can anyone identify a critical decision Torre made in a post-season game to win it?  Ever?

In '96 after talking to Wetteland he ordered the tying run intentionally walked. Pretty sure it was that rather than making the batter the tying run. It was an against the book decision that worked. For some reason I'm thinking Ryan Klesko was involved, though I don't remember if it was to pitch to him or avoid him.

I'd give him credit for his use of catchers throughout the late '90s despite the insistence that he should have penciled in young Posada as a starter and be done with it. It allowed more pinch hitting opportunities by platooning. He sure used Leyritz well in '96.

I know its all about the results, and I don't begrudge the honor he'll receive after he retires.  But if Torre is honest, the first thing he will say is, "I'd like to thank George Steinbrenner's wallet for making this day necessary.  Otherwise, I'd have had the same results as I did in Atlanta, and I'd have been out of baseball 20 years ago."

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Certainly having the players and resources makes a huge difference, and I like to poke a friend who goes on a bit too much about Joe being a genius (I loved Torre as a player and like him as person a great deal) about his stint with the Cardinals. Not sure why you are insulting his results with Braves though as he won a title in his first year and in the next would have won the wild card had there been one. His 3rd and last year the team finished 1 game under .500 and finished 2nd. Big difference that year was that Randy Johnson was a weak-hitting third baseman rather than a 6-10 LHP! I'm with others in finding value in his not screwing up a big budget team and keeping the clubhouse together by how he treats people as underestimated skills.

[Dan Gould]

Your dislike of the Yankees has clouded your judgment, IMO.  Name me a manager who would have been able to survive for this long a period under Steinbrenner, much less won as consistently as Torre has.  You severely underestimate Torre's managerial skills and discount factors that make him the best there is.  Enough from me on this issue.

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How much credit for his survival ought to go to Steinbrenner for realizing that firing people left and right isn't conducive to winning in the long term?

Its the very same factor that led directly to the championship years: Steinbrenner and his minions not controlling the team and making dumb ass short-sighted decisions. That had far more to do with the championships than anything Torre ever did.

And again, you ought to win consistently with that payroll and that roster of all-stars.

If he's "the best there is" then lets see what he does with a not so great team and a not so huge payroll. Put Torre in Tampa Bay. Does that team perform any better than it did under Piniella?

[Dan Gould]

dan won't like me after this weekend, after the tribe makes the post season

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Nah, I still like ya. A tough thing to swallow, I'm sure, but your team has a great future ahead of itself. No one expected them to be this competitive this soon. So long as Wickman can continue to be a top flight closer, no reason the Indians shouldn't be invited to next year's dance.

and speaking of which, for the first time since the 2002 Diamondbacks, the defending World Champions will have a chance to defend that championship.

And if the Rangers don't do something soon, the Yanks are looking at a nice cross-country trek to face the Angels without the home field advantage. Hope they've got ice on the plane for Jeter's knee.

[Dan Gould]

Well, the ESPN experts have spoken and they are unanimous in their predictions of the NLDS (we're in for a repeat of last year's NLCS, Houston vs St. Louis) and 3 of 5 predict that the Pale Hose will lose to the World Champions, and 4 of 5 predict that the Bombers will go home early, too.

[jazzypaul]

Personally, I can only assume that the trash talk between now and Sunday will be legendary.

I don't doubt, at this point, that y'all will kick our asses, but you never know, and I'd be happy as hell to be wrong.

I'd like to see our winning streak to continue here. five in a row is sweet, but we've done 8 in a row on a couple of occasions this season. Here's to hoping for another one.

[Man with the Golden Arm]