relyles Posted July 1, 2005 Report Share Posted July 1, 2005 Realtively recent Devil's Paradise on CleenFeed has a lotof straight time (as far as I can judge) played by Hemingway. ← I was thinking the same thing, but never listened to it with the purpose of determining Hemingway's ability to play straight time. The music does swing to me and it is one of my favorite recordings from the past couple of years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clifford_thornton Posted July 1, 2005 Report Share Posted July 1, 2005 The times I've seen him play, I've noticed that he's a very competitive musician on the stand. It seems like he has, on these occasions, tried to push the music rather than let it just happen. Some recordings I've heard - the AOTW included - do not really give off this vibe, but in a live setting it is noticeable and sort of distracting. So, with respect to his "turning the beat around," it could have been part of that competitive seed coming to bear on the situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted July 1, 2005 Report Share Posted July 1, 2005 (edited) I don't really think so - they were playing a straight ahead gig and he could not keep the time - referring, as before, to people who have heard him play straight four - yes, but it's much different playing straight 4 with song form - in the big picture I would agree that if the music sounds good it is good, so this does not technically effect the other work he's done - it's just that, honestly, watching him on the stand at that time, completely clueless as to the mistakes he was making, was quite disconcerting, and makes it much more difficult for me to listen to him in other contexts - Edited July 1, 2005 by AllenLowe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted July 1, 2005 Report Share Posted July 1, 2005 now, one could - and I would probably agree - make the argument that all this standards and straight-ahead stuff is irrelevant - but the point is, if you can't do it, stay away from it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Reynolds Posted July 2, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 2, 2005 some silly comentary above I saw Hemingway once with Mark Dresser and Joe Lovano - and although much of the show was Ornettish in feel, the time-keeping when applicable, was inpeccable the thought that he is unaware or unable to play straight time is silly and foolish what discs have you given some listening time to, Allen? listne to the title track of Special Detail to hear some mad swing - but alas - it ain't standard type swing - or the last two tracks from the same album - or what about the last track from Demon Chaser? ever heard this shit??? - or are you just trying to piss on a parade??? plus even if he doesn't play standards well, who the fuck cares? his music and his drumming are both beyond what is the norm from a technical and mucicality standpoint how many times do we have to hear some irrelevant commentary about a great musician just because the muci they play might not be what *you* or someone else expects from the music? Dark was the Night, baby Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate Dorward Posted July 2, 2005 Report Share Posted July 2, 2005 Steve--the question wasn't whether Hemingway could play time but whether he can play 4/4 time, which isn't quite the same thing. I don't see why Allen's response is making you get so hot under the collar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clifford_thornton Posted July 3, 2005 Report Share Posted July 3, 2005 Yeah, it ain't sweater weather. I always think it's funny when Milford and Sunny try to play straight 4/4 - they can't do it either, but more than likely it's a result of being so used to playing in an expanded way that it's just the direction they'd rather take it, conscious or not (chicken or egg?). I'll give Hemingway this credit as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted July 3, 2005 Report Share Posted July 3, 2005 I was only pointing out a problem I had with Hemingway - maybe the problem is, if you can't perform well in a certain style, you should not do it - but a gig is a gig and sometimes musicians will do it for the money - though I'm willing to bet, put Hemingway behind Lovano playing Body and Soul and he'll be lost before the bridge. Now, I don't complain that, say, Monk couldn't play like Glen Gould - but if he tried to play those Goldberg Variations, he would have done it right or not at all. Free playing can mask a lot of problems particular players have (I say this from personal experience and won't name any names beside my own), but I have played with some well-known people whose difficulties with certain aspects of the music might really surprise (and dismay) you - look, ok, I'll fess up briefly - Julius Hemphill was the most amazing musician I ever met, but, on a session, I learned that you don't give him a set of standard changes to play over and than expect him to do what he does best - I was surprised to discover I did it better than he did - but than, as a composer and "open" player, I am not in his league. So calm down Steve, I got in a lot less trouble on this forum for being more polite to fellow Organissimmo members than you were in that rather nasty post - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clifford_thornton Posted July 3, 2005 Report Share Posted July 3, 2005 Yeah, it's interesting how free music can open players up that otherwise might have limitations. Is it a matter of thinking, or of practical technique? I can't do math, but I'm good at Logic, so go figure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted July 3, 2005 Report Share Posted July 3, 2005 I think it's a matter of many things, including conditioning - put an old bebopper in an open situation and you might see them become musically paralyzed (as I have also seen with some great musicians) - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Reynolds Posted July 3, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 3, 2005 if Hemingway (based on your sublime knowlegde and listening experience) can't play 4/4 time, then so what? you say that you have a hard time listening to him since that experience but Hemphill was the greatest, or most amazing musician you ever knew - but he couldn't play standards where is the logic here? Hemingway's music and drumming is not standards based, so why do you dismiss him out of hand when Hemphill is on some kind of pedestal although apparently the both of them have some sort of deficiency in your mind makes little sense to me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted July 3, 2005 Report Share Posted July 3, 2005 (edited) A cat can either play or not. Not all players can play all "styles" equally well, since different disciplines and prerequisitroy dispositional inclinations, but that's getting into how well any given individual can play a certain type of music, not whether or not they can play. So Hemphill had problems w/changes. Doesn't mean he couldn't play. Same with Hemmingway and standard form (and Alan, was it the actual time he was turning around, or was he not grasping the "signposts" of the forms and missing them?) - doesn't mean he can't play either. Hell - Louis Armstrong couldn't play bebop. Big whoop. Hemphill got froze by changes. Equally big whoop, and the same for Hemmingway and standard times/tunes. When Louis played Louis, when Julius played Julius, and when Gerry plays Gerry, they knew/know exactly what they're doing, and as long as that's what it is I'm being presented with, that's all I care about. Whatever limitations they may or may not have will reveal themselves over the long haul, as will how "important" those limitations turn out to be. I mean, Arthur Doyle is very limited imo, and his limitations turn out to be very important to me before the end of a CD. In other artist's cases, their limitations never become important. Louis couldn't have played bebop in 1000 years with the skills he had, but lord, he had enough depth to make it totally irrelevant. I'm hoping that this is obvious. Same with Julius - if he couldn't deal with "Stella By Starlight", well, yeah, that's a deficiency, but so is not being able to drink a quart of hydrochloric acid and live, if you know what I mean. I'd not put Hemmingway in quite the same echelon as Armstrong or Hemphill, but he's a damn fine player, and a not-unimportant one. If he has the deficiency that Alan mentions, he has it. No need to duck the issue. And no need to make more of it than needs be made, either. How relevant is it to his own work, how much does it interfere with his projection of his own music? That's the question. Not much, if any, not that I've heard. Gerry Hemmingway can play. No need to not enjoy fried chicken because it's not baked chicken, and vice-versa. Edited July 3, 2005 by JSngry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckyd4 Posted July 3, 2005 Report Share Posted July 3, 2005 Never participated in one of these AOTW things before, but the particular choice caught my eye - glad to see Steve picking one of the "classics," reminds me of my early days on jazz boards. Don't have much to say at the moment, as I haven't listened to a Hemingway disc in probably at least a year or two, but I just put this one on, am still on the first track, and am remembering how great this group was. I really love the dynamics on this one.. the way the whole group seems to move together. Good stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted July 3, 2005 Report Share Posted July 3, 2005 hey Steve, if you want to keep behaving like an asshole, that's fine, but I will continue to discuss this with others on this forum - and I did not dismiss Hemingway out of hand - just said it was troubling, and it is troubling, schmuck (there, we have finished exchanging insults) - there's a difference here - Julius knew what he could do and what he could not do and worked with his strengths - Hemingway, Jim, wasn't missing the form, but could not keep the straight 4, kept turning it around - and worse, unlike Hemphill, he had NO IDEA he was goofing or struggling - I don't care how great he sounds, on other things - this is basic jazz ed. 101- and somewhat pathetic for an established player, especially since he was so clueless - his playing is fine (if a bit dead-sounding to my ears) - he's entitled to his style and preferences - but there's lot of drummers who are more musical and play, to my ears, much more interestingly - and who can hear the difference between 2 and 3- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted July 3, 2005 Report Share Posted July 3, 2005 and yes, guys, this is my problem, not yours, so feel free to listen to as much Hemingway as you like - just don't hire him to play your kid's bar mitzvah (the guests will lynch him - ever try to dance to havah nagila while the drumme'rs playing in 3/4 and than 5/4?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted July 3, 2005 Report Share Posted July 3, 2005 (edited) it's a little like admiring Jackson Pollack but remembering when you used to be in his art class and he couldn't draw a human figure (and here's where Steve jumps up and says, HA! got you, Allen, because Pollack COULD draw representationally! and then, here's where I say, no, smart one, I got YOU - because Pollack COULD draw representationally) - Edited July 3, 2005 by AllenLowe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted July 3, 2005 Report Share Posted July 3, 2005 (edited) it's also a little bit like hearing Bush give a human rights speech - good speech, but I just can't forget all those dead Iraqui civilians - or, with Hemingway, that severely wounded song form - Edited July 3, 2005 by AllenLowe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Reynolds Posted July 4, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 4, 2005 funny how that *I* am called the names imagine if I started a thread here about Joe Maneri..... have a nice day Allen peace and blessings Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted July 4, 2005 Report Share Posted July 4, 2005 Well, now I gotta know - whose straight-ahead gig was it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted July 4, 2005 Report Share Posted July 4, 2005 sorry, Jim, I'm going to have to do some thinking - can't remember right now - and I like Joe Manieri - look, Steve, periodically people complain here about lack of civility - I simply expressed my opinion and you got a bit nasty, let's face it; Jim and I disagree all the time, and he, at least, has perfected a civilized manner of telling me he thinks I'm full of shi* - your tone was really unnecessary, and I say this as one chastened from my own recent excesses - so go stick it - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted July 4, 2005 Report Share Posted July 4, 2005 Jim and I disagree all the time, and he, at least, has perfected a civilized manner of telling me he thinks I'm full of shi* Allen, I never think you're full of shit. I just think that there are a few things about which you have reached a conclusion before considering the full range of possibilities, some of which I attempt to provide you with, even if they fly in the face of your pre-reached conclusions and are met with an understandably reflexive dismissal which sometimes reflects a recital of personal dogma rather than a direct tackling/examination of the specific issues I raise. Of course, that is something we all do from time to time, myself included, although never, I should hope, on the matters on which we disagree. (is that an example of what you mean? ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted July 4, 2005 Report Share Posted July 4, 2005 well done - that's what we used to call a shi*-filled twinkie - very friendly-looking on the outside but filled with something we would rather avoid injesting - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted July 4, 2005 Report Share Posted July 4, 2005 Bon appetit! Seriously, I'd not bother getting into the stuff with you that we sometimes get into if I didn't have a high regard for you. I hope that you (and the others I occasionally "tussle" with here) know that. It's that overall regard that makes the occasional disagreements so perplexing. You know, the "hey, this guy's at least as sharp as I am, so why doesn't he see this like I see it" syndrome. Gotta love it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clifford_thornton Posted July 4, 2005 Report Share Posted July 4, 2005 I think it's a matter of many things, including conditioning - put an old bebopper in an open situation and you might see them become musically paralyzed (as I have also seen with some great musicians) - ← Ever listen to Art Taylor play with Frank Wright? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted July 4, 2005 Report Share Posted July 4, 2005 I enjoy the give and take, not a problem ever for me- and no, I never did hear Taylor with Frank Wright- did they ever record it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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