Rooster_Ties Posted July 16, 2003 Report Share Posted July 16, 2003 (edited) (I just started this exact same poll on AAJ, and the quotes come from another AAJ thread. Thought it might be fun to post the same poll here. And actually, if you have anything really meaty to say on the subject, I'd really appreciate if you also posted it over on the AAJ side of the world, since that's where the real fireworks are already beginning to happen on this subject.) Which of these two albums was more groundbreaking??? Originally posted by Hardbop I guess you can argue all day about what is a classic. I didn't know that "Head Hunters" was a classic. If one criterion of a classic is standing the test of time, I don't know if "HH" would meet that criterion. Was "HH" really groundbreaking from a musical standpoint or was it a classic because it sold a lot of copies? Originally posted by md655321 "I didn't know that "Head Hunters" was a classic." - Hardbop Well that certainly explains alot. If you are still wondering, yes it is absolutely considered a classic. "If one criterion of a classic is standing the test of time, I don't know if "HH" would meet that criterion." - Hardbop If you are still wondering, yes it would absolutely meet the criterion. If you want specific examples, the allmusic guide gives it 5 stars and the Penguin guie gives it a rosette as one of the most outstanding pieces of jazz ever. For more examples, I'm sure many people on this board are more than willing to attest to its absolute greatness. More than you can say of "Blood on the Fields". Originally posted by Hardbop Which one won the Pulitzer? Make your choice: which one will "stand the test of time"??? :D Edited July 16, 2003 by Rooster_Ties Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster_Ties Posted July 17, 2003 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2003 Quick update - 18 votes so far at the parallel poll on AAJ. 18 votes for "Head Hunters" Zero votes for "Blood on the Fields". Hardbop wouldn't vote, cuz he had never heard "Head Hunters" before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Alfredson Posted July 17, 2003 Report Share Posted July 17, 2003 C'mon Rooster, you're just baiting the poor guy... It's funny as hell, too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster_Ties Posted July 17, 2003 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2003 Couldn't help it. He was askin' for it!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster_Ties Posted July 17, 2003 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2003 Actually, now that nobody has voted for "Blood on the Fields" (over "Head Hunters"), I'm thinking of starting another poll over there where I just ask if anybody thinks "Blood on the Fields" is any good (yes or no??), just on it's own merits. :rsmile: :rsmile: :rsmile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbo Posted July 17, 2003 Report Share Posted July 17, 2003 (edited) Personally, I like "Blood on the Fields," and I play it more often than "Headhunters" which is okay, but really not something I need to hear a lot. I think the book on BOF and some of the writing and playing is quite good. I didn't think so immediately, I had to live with the recording a few years and get it out from time to time, but it clicked with me and I like its story and the execution quite a bit. Personally I don't think either are phenomenally important works in the scheme of things, so I've not really voted for one or the other. But if one asked me to vote for one of these, I would not choose the Hancock. Edited July 17, 2003 by jazzbo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Weil Posted July 17, 2003 Report Share Posted July 17, 2003 I think the libretto to BotF is poor. It's banal, "schoolboy" level of "poetry". Simon Weil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbo Posted July 17, 2003 Report Share Posted July 17, 2003 Your opinion, not shared, is duly noted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robviti Posted July 17, 2003 Report Share Posted July 17, 2003 (edited) "groundbreaking" - something markedly innovative. based on this definition, my vote is "neither of the above." Edited July 17, 2003 by jazzshrink Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted July 17, 2003 Report Share Posted July 17, 2003 Well, I'd like to know this - who was doing stuff like "Chameleon" (the whole piece, not just the "hit" part) & "Vein Melter" before Herbie did HEADHUNTERS? Sure, you can break it down into "this came from here, and that came from there", but that still leaves out the Herbie factor that put it all together into a unique whole. Like it or loathe it, I sure as hell hadn't heard anything like it when it came out! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertrand Posted July 17, 2003 Report Share Posted July 17, 2003 (edited) Who was doing anything like Blood On The Fields before Wynton was doing it? The real question is, who will ever want to do it again! Bertrand. Edited July 17, 2003 by bertrand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbo Posted July 17, 2003 Report Share Posted July 17, 2003 (edited) I think BOF gets short shrift. As a tale of slavery and escape and self-determination it works. It has great vocalists who actually have interesting material to sing (I differ that it is "schoolboy" or whatever; I think it captures the vibe of the material well, and is well suited to the strong voices.) And in the Ellington/Mingus orchestrated mode it has merit musically as well. And as a jazz opera, I feel it is more successful than some other attempts at the genre. It is in some ways a successful continuation of Duke's attempts to chronicle "my people" in musical terms. It's just my opinion, which I came too gradually after listening to it more than half a dozen times. At first I was ready to dismiss it offhand, but I gave it a chance and it has depth that rewards listenings. I'd honestly myself rather listen to this than Headhunters. Headhunters was cool in its time, but I don't get much out of it now. But that's just me. Edited July 17, 2003 by jazzbo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noj Posted July 17, 2003 Report Share Posted July 17, 2003 (edited) I reach for Thrust or Mwandishi first for electric Herbie, but I love Headhunters. The latter portion of "Chameleon", as I said on the other thread, has drumming that is incredible to these ears. "Vein Melter" pushes all the right buttons for me. Edited July 17, 2003 by Noj Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster_Ties Posted July 17, 2003 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2003 (edited) Of course the irony in all this is that I don't own either "Head Hunters" or "Blood On The Fields". I've heard "Head Hunters" before (about 6 or 8 years ago), but I've never heard "Blood...", not even any sound-samples. BUT, if you look at all my posts on this topic (both here and on the parallel AAJ thread) - I don't think I've ever made any grand statements about the relative value of either title, short of suggesting that maybe Carla Bley's "Escalator Over The Hill" might be more groundbreaking (for it's time), than "Blood On The Fields" is (for it's time). I just was getting tired of Hardbop and that other guy having a big old pissing contest, without enough other people giving their opinions on the matter - to hopefully add weight to what I think is the relative value of each. (And yes, I said "think", because I have my serious doubts about "Blood..." (which I've never heard) --- but then, yes, it's been years since I've heard "Head Hunters".) BUT, I never actually said one is better than the other. I just wanted to create a poll and a thread to go with it (more so on AAJ than here, cuz AAJ is where Hardbop and that other guy hang out), so people could hash it out however they like. Edited July 17, 2003 by Rooster_Ties Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Weil Posted July 17, 2003 Report Share Posted July 17, 2003 I differ that it is "schoolboy" or whatever; I think it captures the vibe of the material well, and is well suited to the strong voices. My feeling is it's what you'de expect from a bright schoolboy who was told to write some poetry for homework. So he goes to his books and sees how it's done, all this old poetry which scans and is quite pleasing and has this or that form. So then he writes something on this or that "acceptable" theme, emotes along this or that "acceptable" line, and constructs it along this or that bunch of structures. And he gets an "A" from his teacher. I don't discern any individuality of emotion. Simon Weil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbo Posted July 17, 2003 Report Share Posted July 17, 2003 (edited) Okay, I hear it differently. I really feel that a lot of the material is fitting for Juba, and the others, and recreates possible feelings from this past reality. I'm quite impressed really with what has been conveyed by these words. I had to listen quite a bit and absorb, but they spoke to me. Edited July 17, 2003 by jazzbo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster_Ties Posted July 18, 2003 Author Report Share Posted July 18, 2003 (edited) Man, I shouldnt' have done this, but I did. Here's what I just posted to the parallel thread on AAJ, after several people started taking Hardbop to task over his complete dismissal of fusion, and his equating of "Head Hunters" with Kenny G. Originally posted by Rooster_Ties on AAJ ( For the record, this post isn't meant as a personal attack on Hardbop. Other than musically speaking, he and I are on good terms (though maybe not after this post! ). In fact, I genuinely miss his rants and non-rants on all kinds of other subjects, from our days on the old BNBB. His 'film' and 'book' threads, in particular, were and are always valuable - from my perspective. He's a good guy too -- there, I said it!! -- though he and I obviously differ a mile or two (hundred) in our musical tastes. ) That said... I'm afraid Mr. Hardbop is, by his own admission, "a jazz purist". If there is any electricity involved, he don't want nothin' to do with it. I suspect the only exception to this rule might be Grant Green, perhaps, maybe, and maybe some others like Green, perhaps - begrudgingly. But, anything with Organ, or (God-forbid!!) "Fender Rhodes"!!! -- is damn near Devil-music to Mr. Hardbop. :eek: I remember a thread on the old BNBB, where Hardbop finally got a hold of Larry Young's "Unity", after all these years of hearing everyone singing it's praises, over and over and over, from the highest mountain. If I remember correctly, Hardbop thought that "Unity" was maybe "so-so" (at best), but way overrated. AND, I may even be remembering that wrong, and he might have out-and-out hated it -- I'm not entirely sure which. (Probably somewhere in between.) In any case, "Unity" was totally not 'the shit' for Mr. Hardbop, and was merely just 'shit' (or at least more so, than not). Yessiree, if it don't swing in a conventional way, and/or if it's even got any hint of anything weird going on (electrically speaking), it's not just "not Hardbop's cup of tea". NO, it's really just not any good at all, in a much more general sense. (For instance, the Dave Holland Quintet is merely an “OK” group to Mr. Hardbop, and frankly - he thinks they’re way overrated. They don’t swing. And if it don’t swing, it don’t mean a thing...) I love ya, Hardbop... but I gotta say that your "anything I don't like is automatically 'bad' in some universal sense" stance is really annoying. And funnily enough, it's that very same kind of attitude that Wynton has, and preaches, and proselytizes about - that also gets my goat. “If it ain’t what I like, then it obviously ain’t any good, not at all”. Shheeesh... [/soapbox] Peace!!! :D Edited July 18, 2003 by Rooster_Ties Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ariceffron Posted July 18, 2003 Report Share Posted July 18, 2003 if this was a real poll the whole thing would be invalidated (or Zero with a line thru it) beacuse these two albums have nothing in common. One is straight up herbie funk and the other is wynton and his big band. The two albums might be equally groundbreaking in their respective catagories if you so feel that way, or equally not groundbreaking, if thats the way youre looking at it. but they have nothing in common, if thats what your getting at Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster_Ties Posted July 18, 2003 Author Report Share Posted July 18, 2003 hell yeah!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Weil Posted July 18, 2003 Report Share Posted July 18, 2003 There is a classic dual interview - of Wynton and Herbie - by Rafi Zabor and Vic Garbarani, "Wynton vs Herbie: The Purist and the Crossbreeder Duke It Out" (1985). This is collected in _Keeping Time_ ed Walser. The thread seems an echo of it in a certain way. That's a kind of musical link. The conception of "versus". Simon Weil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christiern Posted July 20, 2003 Report Share Posted July 20, 2003 Who was doing anything like Blood On The Fields before Wynton was doing it? The real question is, who will ever want to do it again! Bertrand. Blood is not the first example of pretentious mediocrity, nor will it be the last. "Neither" is the answer I would have given to this poll--it should have been an option, IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Alfredson Posted July 21, 2003 Report Share Posted July 21, 2003 All I know is Head Hunters be funky as hell. That's good enough for me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeweil Posted July 21, 2003 Report Share Posted July 21, 2003 I too have never heard a second of Marsalis' opus, but voted for Herbie, nevertheless. Headhunters is a record that changed the music world, and I dig it and play it like crazy! All these guys are marvellous, and Harvey Mason and Bill Summers are the epitome of taste and funkiness! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miles251 Posted August 8, 2003 Report Share Posted August 8, 2003 IMHO.......TheHeadhunters were an extension of the "electric Miles" fusion movement. Herbie took it another step....to me that is inovation. BITF, to me, is more like a lame Ellington suite with questioable libretto. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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