Canonball & Trane

[marcello]

Looking back to the original question.......No.

Another example is the Jazz at the Plaza recording for fans of the Miles/Trane/Cannonball group.

[John L]

I am a bit uncomfortable with the word "commercialism" here. My impression (although I could be wrong) is that Cannonball was not obsessed with chasing money. On the other hand, he understood his role in jazz the old- fashioned way: not just as artist but as entertainer. He wanted to give the people what they want for partying and good times. He promoted jazz not just as art, but as a social function. He brought jazz not just to jazz fans, and he did it consciously. Still, I don't see this as any sort of sell out. I think that it was what Cannoball wanted to do, even not considering the relative financial rewards.

[JSngry]

I'm not necessarily uncomfortable with the word, just the de facto negative connotations that seem to come with it. Things aren't always that simple. Sometimes they are, but sometimes they're not...

Relevan reading might be "Education Of A Band Leader" from Jazz Review, reprinted in Jazz Panorama. 'Twas written long before the Capitol-and-beyond period, but it still offeres insight into how Cannonball viewed "the business".

Also worth a gander - "In Defense of Commercialism" by Dan Morgenstern, originally in down beat, reprinted in that book of his that came out last year. Cannonball is not involved, but it's something to think about nevertheless.

[JSngry]

So............I guess this is the wrong place to say Cannon gives me the heebie jeebies...

Look out boys and girls, we're going to play WALK TALL!!!!!

Edited January 17, 2006 by JSngry

[Dan Gould]

So............I guess this is the wrong place to say Cannon gives me the heebie jeebies and I only enjoy him in very small doses and in contexts where I can't avoid the irritation.

I would be very curious to know what it is about Cannon that gives you the heebie jeebies and what constitutes the small doses and contexts where you can't avoid the irritation.

[John L]

Jim- My idea is to distinguish "commericialism" in the sense of spending time and effort on what sells as opposed to what the artists would ideally like to be creating (and hey, there's nothing inherently wrong with that. The dream of almost any musician is to make a living by making music. For that, usually at least some compromises are necessary) ...and the desire to make music "for the people" in and of itself.

In jazz, I think that this distinction is particularly important since the music itself was born as part of social functions, and it maintained that profile at least until Bebop.

To say that Cannonball gave in to commericialism has the connotation that he was making artistic compromises in order to make money. Maybe that is true. But I would like to see some proof. Until I see that proof, for the case of Cannonball, I will assume that it is not true. I think that Cannonball really wanted to make music "for the people."

Edited January 17, 2006 by John L

[AllenLowe]

I doubt it - the point has been made before this that a lot of what Cannonball was doing was related to some of the more populist tendencies in his music, which is indeed true. But if you'd seen him as I saw him in the early 1970s, it was pretty sad stuff, long vamps with nothing happening, he was definitely playing well below his capabilities - it is one thing to goose the crowd (a la Louis Armstrong), another to just try find a groove that'll get you work and record sales. Nothing wrong with this, but we should recognize it for what it is/was -

[AllenLowe]

look - we can't "prove" that he was doing this to make money, even though it's pretty obvious that's what he was doing - but just think - would Cannonball have been playing this way if jazz had not been going through this particular eclipse?

I think not...

[JSngry]

look - we can't "prove" that he was doing this to make money, even though it's pretty obvious that's what he was doing - but just think - would Cannonball have been playing this way if jazz had not been going through this particular eclipse?

I think not...

Not so fast...

That's overlooking his involvement in the Civil Rights movement in general & with Jesse Jackson ("The Country Preacher" who he can be heard referring to as "our pastor" in one of his ongoing monologues) in particular. Cannonball was definitely moving in circles other than purely "jazz" ones, and he was definitely out of the "New York" loop, and had been for some time. This was a road band, and the road took them all kinds of places. and given the climate of the times, I don't think that he'd still be playing "Dizzy's Business" or such. That was then, and then wasn't what was happening now. Could you see him playing something like "Waltz For Debby" or "Never Will I Marry" to a Southern, predominately African-American crowd in a club in, say, 1969?

Such a crowd, remember, would have been "closer to home" for him in some ways than an urban "jazz crowd". If anything, the "heebie-jeebies" that Chuck describes getting from Cannonball (and which I understand to some point - "Dancing In The Dark" from Somethin' Else kinda does that to me, to be honest, and its not the only one...) is something that I hear in much more in his earlier work. There is a flavor of "gauchness" to some of that work, like a hip "country boy" who hadn't yet figured out how to "tone it down" to a requistely "urban" level (this was an ongoing criticism of Adderley in some circles, remember). Playing some "down home" "country soul" type stuff (which is the type of popular Soul music he mostly echoed, not the slick pop of Motown or the neo-Africanisms of James Brown) might, might, well have been a bit of personal liberation for him as well - a chance to take off his shoes and run barefoot through the country mud for a little bit, if you know what I mean (and if you don't, well, all I can tell you is that you're missing one of the finer things in life!). "Making money" is but one part of what he was doing, I'm convinced.

And I don't doubt your description of what you heard at the gig you describe, but when I heard him in 1974, the program was nowhere near as heterogeneous as what you seem to have heard. A record like 1970's The Price You Got to Pay to Be Free, unfortunately edited though it is, paints an entirely different picture as well, and it's not the only album that does. Maybe you heard him in the wrong room and/or with the wrong crowd and/or on the wrong night?

Edited January 17, 2006 by JSngry

[Rosco]

Can this thread be nominated for some kind of award? Marvellous stuff.

All I can do is watch awestruck from the sidelines. Totally digging Mr. Sangry's take on this.

It's a little too simple to regard all Cannonball's later work as 'commercial' given that, alongside the funk/ soul aspects he was also flirting with the fringes of the avant-garde (albeit in a highly approachable form) particularly in some of the pieces Joe Zawinul wrote. 'Rumpelstiltskin', 'Dr. Honorus Causa' and 'Experience in E' certainly aren't 'easier' to listen to than 'Work Song'.

[medjuck]

If by "commercial" you mean popular, I don't think it should affect how you react to the music. In terms of sales, KOB is Miles's most commercial record. I used to joke that Miles would have been more popular in the 70's if he'd continued to play "My Funny Valentine". I d like to think he didn't go electric to sell more records but because he was bored with what he'd been playing. I may not have liked him as much after 1970 but he didn't give a shit about what I, or anyone else, liked. Maybe the same is true for Cannon. I happen to like his early stuff better than his later work. Obviously many people disagree. (Though I probably really enjoyed "Mercy, Mercy, Mercy" the first 100 or so times I heard it.)

[Free For All]

Maybe my favorite Cannonball.

[AllenLowe]

let's not forget the Buckingham's version of Mercy Mercy - probably made Cannonball (at least I hope) a fair amount of cash - I don't know who wrote the lyrics -

[JSngry]

I hope that it made Joe Zawinul even more money than it did Cannonball!

Lyrics are generally credited to Johhny Watson & Larry Williams. Bet there's a story there...

[Larry Kart]

Maybe my favorite Cannonball.

Maybe mine, too. Interesting in the light of what Chuck said about Cannonball usually giving him the heebie-jeebies (though as I've said at least once before, I don't presume to read Chuck's mind) that one of the standout performances here is of Leroy Anderson's "Serenata." That is, without doubt the music of Anderson (he of "The Syncopated Clock" et al.) was deeply prefab/streamlined-corny, and Cannonball had some affinity with that kind of thing -- though on a very good good day like this one he could take a tune like "Serenata" and transform its manufactured swoony dreaminess into genuine lyricism IMO. BTW, I'm not saying that I am (or that anyone can or should be) wholly immune to manufactured swoony dreaminess and all its various offshoots -- not possible if you were born in the U.S.A. in the 20th Century. In fact, one of the things that a fair amount of jazz does is show us how to deal with those more or less inescapable things. Anyhow, Cannonball on "Serenata" is one of my favorite examples, in part because it's fairly extreme and/or close to going over the line.

[AllenLowe]

strange thing, too, is that I recently heard a bad vocal version on BET jazz by a bad singer with even different lyrics - also, I figure you mean that Zawinul wrote the tune -

[medjuck]

Maybe my favorite Cannonball.

Maybe mine, too. Interesting in the light of what Chuck said about Cannonball usually giving him the heebie-jeebies (though as I've said at least once before, I don't presume to read Chuck's mind) that one of the standout performances here is of Leroy Anderson's "Serenata." That is, without doubt the music of Anderson (he of "The Syncopated Clock" et al.) was deeply prefab/streamlined-corny, and Cannonball had some affinity with that kind of thing -- though on a very good good day like this one he could take a tune like "Serenata" and transform its manufactured swoony dreaminess into genuine lyricism IMO. BTW, I'm not saying that I am (or that anyone can or should be) wholly immune to manufactured swoony dreaminess and all its various offshoots -- not possible if you were born in the U.S.A. in the 20th Century. In fact, one of the things that a fair amount of jazz does is show us how to deal with those more or less inescapable things. Anyhow, Cannonball on "Serenata" is one of my favorite examples, in part because it's fairly extreme and/or close to going over the line.

Didn't Wayne Shorter recently record "Serenata"?

[Larry Kart]

Yes, Shorter recorded "Serenata" on "Alegria." I'll have to listen again, but as I recall, Shorter handled it in a rather arms-length, exquisite-tasteful manner, while Cannonball engaged its implicit vulgarity pretty much head-on. If I had to choose, I'd take Cannonball's approach this time, but, again as I recall, I liked "Alegria" a fair bit more than I thought I would (or even should) -- I think because in the end it seemed more exquisite than tasteful.

[paul secor]

A bit late to the discussion, but I'll add my bit.

I guess I'm not as complex as some here, and I like to present things as simply as possible. I was twenty when "Mercy, Mercy, Mercy" came out, and I was somewhat familiar with Cannonball's playing through some of his Riversides, the "Chicago" recording with Trane, and some Miles sides. "Mercy" just sounded to me like an attempt to "cash in", and didn't interest me. I'd rather have listened (and still would) to someone like Junior Walker, who was recording popular sides around that time. There was a sense for me that Junior Walker was playing something real, whereas I didn't have that sense with "Mercy". I wouldn't presume to comment on whether it was real for Cannonball - it just didn't sound real for me. I know that others heard (and hear) it differently, and that's fine. I'm just giving my own reaction.

[paul secor]

So............I guess this is the wrong place to say Cannon gives me the heebie jeebies and I only enjoy him in very small doses and in contexts where I can't avoid the irritation.

Funny, I don't have that feeling about Cannonball (at least pre-Capitol), but I feel exactly the same about Roland Kirk. Can't take most of the Rashaaan period at all - though I plan to give his Prestige side with McDuff a listen this afternoon).

[JSngry]

If Junior Walker ever played something like "Fun" or "Hippodelphis", I'd like to hear it!

Really, though, I've always been a bit puzzled by the general notion that Mercy, Mercy, Mercy! was Cannonball's big "sellout" album. Other than the title cut, there's absolutely no material on there that would be out of place on a live Riverside date such as the Jazz Workshop sides.

Many of the Capitol sides prior to this one were at least every bit as "commercial" (and some, like Great Love Themes were significantly more commercial!). Great Love Themes, the various sides with the singers, even Fiddler On the Roof (great side though it is), these are all defintely albums that were produced with "commercial" intent, and one could argue that they are all more blatantly commercial than was Mercy, Mercy, Mercy!.

Now, the next few Capitol albums immediately following Mercy, Mercy, Mercy! definitely took their cue from the success of that album's hit song. But Mercy, Mercy, Mercy! itself, outside of that one song, is actually a really solid jazz album. Time for a critical re-evaluation, I think!

Edited January 22, 2006 by JSngry

[jazzbo]

I have the JRVG of that one and it keeps opening up my ears. . . there are some ideas that Cannon spills out on that one that just really keep impressing me. I really dig it!

[John L]

Now, the next few Capitol albums immediately following Mercy, Mercy, Mercy! definitely took their cue from the success of that album's hit song. But Mercy, Mercy, Mercy! itself, outside of that one song, is actually a really solid jazz album. Time for a critical re-evaluation, I think!

I have always considered "Mercy, Mercy, Mercy" to be one of Cannonball's great ones, and it is a as good a testimony as any to the fact that great jazz can also be popular jazz oriented toward a wide audience.

[mrjazzman]

I have just about all of cannonball's recordings and I don't hear trane in any of them, will have to revisit the cannonball section of my collection...........

[AllenLowe]

mrjazzman, there's a WHOLE album of Trane with Cannonball - if you don't hear any Trane on that one, you may be listening in mono -

Edited January 25, 2006 by AllenLowe