How's your local jazz scene???

[Rooster_Ties]

From the Kansas City Star "stuff around town 'gossip' column" (for lack of a better descriptive term) on Sunday...

Posted on Sun, Jul. 20, 2003 

Club owner is ready to blow the taps for KC jazz

By HEARNE CHRISTOPHER, JR.

The Kansas City Star

Club owner is ready to blow the taps for KC jazz

No shock and awe for hipster-about-town Chris Seferyn over the demise of Cowtown jazz joint 'The New Point Grille'.

"When are jazz lovers in this town going to finally admit that people don't really like jazz that much?" Seferyn asks. "KC was a jumping jazz town when jazz was a much bigger musical form, before there was rock 'n' roll and rap and hip-hop and pop, etc. Now, jazz accounts for less than 1 percent of records sold worldwide, so why would people think that putting a jazz band in a restaurant would bring customers in?"

If that's not enough of a reality check, try this:

"I'm sure there are a lot of things out there that are liked by less than 1 percent of the population that nobody thinks of putting in a restaurant," Seferyn continues. "Death metal is probably more popular than jazz. And hiring jazz musicians because they need work instead of the market wanting their wares is like communism. And we all know how that turned out."

Seferyn -- who runs The Velvet Dog, Empire Room, Cafe Trocadero, DiPardo's Wine and Spirits and The Spy Agency and Salon, all along or near East 31st Street -- has a solution for the Cowtown's obsessive jazz jones:

"Jazz needs to be consolidated down to one little club like Jardine's, so that one club can actually make money off the 162 people in Kansas City that are willing to pay for jazz," Seferyn says. "If you call it that, because even Jardine's can't afford to charge a cover because jazz fans are so notoriously cheap. So let's stop crying over jazz places closing."

"That's just Kansas City," Jardine's owner Beena Brandsgard says with a sigh. "You know we're not New York and we're not Paris. But I'm happy to be here in Kansas City. I just wish more people would take the time to come and listen to the music, because the quality of the jazz music here is so high."

Jazz Ambassador Magazine editor Mike Metheny says KC's support for jazz appears to be "sliding down a slippery slope":

"Are there enough jazz fans in Kansas City to keep the scene alive and healthy? I think there are. But are they getting out and showing their support? Clearly not enough."

Brandsgard has a rejoinder for Mr. Velvet Dog Dude: "You know, Chris is a heavy-metal, punk kid. His interest is different. Yes, jazz is not what it used to be, but why worry about what it used to be. Sure Charlie Parker was here and that was great. But we can't worry about that now. We need to embrace what we have now and move on. We need to build on what we have and take one step at a time. And maybe Chris will change his mind and quit listening to heavy metal and buy a jazz CD."

[Jim Alfredson]

The problem is that jazz fans and critics need to stop worshipping dead idols and support the new breed of musicians. Stop buying re-issues. How many copies of Blue Train do you need? Buy some new music for Pete's sake!!!

[Rooster_Ties]

Part of the problem, at least in Kansas City, is that frankly; most of the time the jazz scene here is boring as hell. Well, at least 80% or even 90% of it is.

Half the cats might as well be phoning it in, and it's like pulling teeth to get them to play anything that's in any way challenging, or creative. (And I mean just playing with fire, and I’m not talking about doing anything “out”, or “free”.) There's a core group of very talented musicians, who sometimes play in creative contexts, and can make it happen when they do... ...but the rest of the time, they're about as exciting as multi-grain whole-wheat bread (which is better than plain white bread, but still).

And, there’s several relatively well-known guys (well-known in the Kansas City area) who I believe really haven't done a truly "creative" thing in over 20 years.

I mean, playing "Footprints" is a big stretch for them, and they've been known to fuck up the changes on that!! (I know, I've heard ‘em do it).

Now, there are a few (maybe as many as a dozen or so) active Kansas City musicians around – real musicians – who normally play anything from 'well', to 'pretty well', to 'pretty darn well', to 'hot damn!!' - depending on the context they're in, and how much freedom it allows them. But most of the time, there’s not that much freedom to be had. For instance, to the best of my knowledge, there are NO active organ trios in town, or even bands with a B3 (there was one a few years ago, since broken up). And there's one guy who plays some half-ass synth keyboard with a B3 setting, but he's one of the guys I bitched about in the second paragraph of this post.

I, for one, am rarely motivated to go out and hear any live music in this town - cuz there's only about one or two shows a month (3 tops) with all local guys, that are ever even worth walking out the door for.

And there's only one club in town anymore that ever brings in outside acts (Greg Osby a couple months ago, Greg Tardy next month, usually one or sometimes two great out-of-town acts per month).

There have got to be better scenes than this in other towns, cuz if this is the future of jazz - then jazz is on life-support, and it’s dyin' fast. (Not that I think it really is dyin', overall -- but the scene here in K.C. is way more "shit" than it is "the shit", and I fear the same for anything short of New York, Chicago, and cities of that kind of size.)

HEY, YOU, that guy from K.C. who lives like less than a mile west of me!!! Get in here, get registered, and get in the game. I know you lurk here all the time (and used to lurk back on the BNBB), and this thread - if nothin' else - needs your input.

Edited July 23, 2003 by Rooster_Ties

[Joe G]

I feel your pain Rooster. I'm sure a lot of the people who say they don't like jazz aren't thinking of Kenny G, they're thinking of having sat through a lame performance that was billed as jazz music. And many musicians feel the same way. A good friend of mine (an outstanding drummer) moved out to San Francisco, hoping (among other things) to break into the scene out there. Long story short, he ended up being so disgusted with the way jazz is played out there that he ended up not playing it at all. He joined a King Crimson type group and is playing just a couple gigs a month for fun. And so it cuts both ways. There's more than a few jazz musicians, and damn good ones, who are tired of playing those half empty jazz clubs and thus are looking into other avenues of expression. IMO, as long as the music is still good, and the person playing it still believes in it, than it doesn't really matter if it's called jazz or something else.

I will say that the overall culture probably plays a significant role in influencing what the average person listens to. Mainstream culture is pretty far from jazz aesthetics, so it takes some strong interest and (self)education for someone to like jazz enough to go see it live.

Edited July 22, 2003 by Joe G

[Soul Stream]

Jazz used to be about a connection with the audience. Now either bad or good, it's usually self-indulgent. Most jazz players I see could care less whether people liked what they did or not. Fact of the matter is, in their viewpoint, the audience is pretty much dumb cattle that "don't get it."

Plus, the younger crop of players are playing 1 or 2 chord "trane" vamps that go on endlessly and all sound the same after a while. On the other hand, if they play a standard, it's usually pretty badly done.

The average "Jazz" band on a local non-nyc, chicago, ect. scene just isn't doint anything that the average person can connect with. And that's the whole name of this music business game. Without a connection, music is just a crossword puzzle for the players own amusement. I see a lot of that.

On the tip that the audience doens't "get it." I find that you could probably put Lester Young, Billie Holliday or Charlie Parker in a C&W bar in Abilene and their musicianship and ability to communicate would floor any audience. In the end, it's almost never the audience's fault, but our own as musicians for the most part.

Plus, there's no written law that says jazz and classical music should flourish forever. Styles of music come and go. Without a jazz scene that connects with the average person, it will probably die as a living music.

Edited July 22, 2003 by Soul Stream

[Rooster_Ties]

(With notable exceptions here and there), On any given night in Kansas City, with any given group - about 80-90% of what you're going to hear is standards, and mostly conservative ones at that. And the only attempts at anything 'hot' are typically over blues changes, or "Rhythm" changes, or almost always something similar.

Even a great like Bobby Watson, who now lives and teaches in Kansas City, is more often than not playing local gigs with this same kind of material. (Although, clearly, he plays at a level that's way, way above the norm.) Still, when that's the norm --- program-wise, content-wise --- then it makes for some pretty snoozy listening opportunities.

Tired be-bop is still the norm around these parts, and standards that have been standards since 1960 or earlier.

Really, you'd be amazed at the number of "professional jazz musicians" in this town, who are mostly playing slightly higher-quality versions of the exact same thing that gets played at all the Saturday afternoon "jam session" gigs (of which there are still one or two left). Really half-assed stuff, with no hint of craft or creativity, save for the occasional accidental lapse when a ballad turns particularly poignant, and usually unintentionally at that.

( And I admit that there's the possibility that I'm speaking a little bit out of turn here. I don't get out to hear these people all the time, clearly, so I'm speaking from what periodic but only occasional experience I've had, listening at random jazz clubs around Kansas City, over the last 8-9 years. Maybe almost every night I caught over the last 8-9 years (3 or 4 times a year? - for the half-ass acts), all just happened to be a 'bad' nights. But, somehow, I kinda doubt it. )

And, for the most part, THAT is what the public around here think's is Jazz. It's not so much Kenny G. that's the problem, as I see it, but rather lazy jazz musicians who don't bother to put any effort into - Soul Stream just said it - who don't put any effort into CONNECTING with the public.

And for me, playing the same, tired old shit, decade after decade, is just killing the music.

There are some exceptions, and I patronize them every chance I get. But most of the cats around town (probably 60%, maybe 70%) aren't even worth the price of gas to get to their gigs, let alone a $3 cover.

Edited July 22, 2003 by Rooster_Ties

[Rooster_Ties]

Where's Jim?? This thread needs JSngry's input...

The rest of you, all pile on too - I don't want this to just be me ranting on about things.

Either ya got the same problem in your town, or you don't. But either way, you oughta have somethin' to say about it.

[Dan Gould]

Its hard for me to relate to much of Rooster's rants, for a couple of reasons.

#1, the "scene" in South Florida is limited, in my experience, to several jazz preservation societies who bring in national talents, plus a small number of superb artists who make south Florida their home, ranging from Eddie Higgins to Phil Flanigin to Melton Mustafa and his very talented brother Jesse Jones, plus some older players who are quite talented but for the most part make their money teaching. They gig locally or in the case of Higgins, get called in to support the touring acts like Red Holloway and others.

#2, personally, I am not at all disturbed to hear standards that were standards by 1960. Not in the slightest. If I see an unknown, for instance, there is a monthly "Riverwalk Sunfest Jazz" thing that takes place on the first Sunday of every month, I am perfectly happy to hear serviceable bebop. Similarly, when I lived in Tallahassee, there was a Farmer's Market downtown every Saturday, and there would be a two hour quartet or quintet jam session, usually by FSU or Florida A&M jazz students. They didn't rip it up, but they didn't fuck it up either. Just a nice chance to sit out in the park on a blanket and hear some young musicians.

Overall, I can't relate to Rooster's rant because I have not sought out the club scene very much so I do not know enough about the playing of the youngest, unestablished jazz musicians here. But there's definitely a strong core of very talented local musicians, some extremely well known, some totally unknown, who are very good at what they do. Specifically, I can think of the different local bass and drum players who have been called on to sit in with people like Eric Alexander and Norman Simmons, or with Red Holloway and Eddie Higgins-excellent rhythm sectionmates, who maybe did not stand out greatly but nevertheless performed their role admirably.

[Soul Stream]

(With notable exceptions here and there), On any given night in Kansas City, with any given group - about 80-90% of what you're going to hear is standards, and mostly conservative ones at that. And the only attempts at anything 'hot' are typically over blues changes, or "Rhythm" changes, or almost always something similar.

Even a great like Bobby Watson, who now lives and teaches in Kansas City, is more often than not playing local gigs with this same kind of material. (Although, clearly, he plays at a level that's way, way above the norm.) Still, when that's the norm --- program-wise, content-wise --- then it makes for some pretty snoozy listening opportunities.

Tired be-bop is still the norm around these parts, and standards that have been standards since 1960 or earlier.

And for me, playing the same, tired old shit, decade after decade, is just killing the music.

I'm to the point where I'm not really concerned with "what" a musician is playing, but HOW he's playing it. It could be OLEO, I Got Rhythm, Stardust... or any other so-called "tired" jazz vehicle. However, I think what you're tiring of more than anything is the lack of energy more than the standards. I saw Dewey Redman pull every inch out of "Second Balcony Jump" with a pick up band a couple months ago (at a VERY slow-medium tempo). That song in could either be facsinating or boring to me, depending on who's playinig it.

I'd rather hear rhythm changes played superbly with heart than an "original" or something forced, played with boredom or less than professional capability.

I go to NYC and hear those same old standards played all the time. The difference is that Harold M. or Eric Alexander or George Coleman or Lou Donaldson is killin' those changes. To hear Lou Donaldson play "Somewhere Over the Rainbow" is a joy to me. And most of the audience because he's playing it with heart and expertise and it's a song they know. Lou CONNECTS!

[Rooster_Ties]

I agree, that standards - in and of themselves - are not the problem. Well chosen standards are always welcome.

But hearing "All The Things You Are" or "How High The Moon", and exclusively those kinds of tired warhorses, is what I'm refering to. I honestly think "Green Dolphin Street" would even be out of character for many of these more 'tired' acts to play. And certainly you'll never hear "Round Midnight".

I will admit that probably most of the bands - actual groups that have fairly consistent line-ups from gig to gig - are usually half-way decent (and sometimes even excellent - a couple local groups come to mind). But half or more of what passes for jazz in this town are free-lancers who put together gigs with 'pickup' guys, a different guy every gig, for every chair - until they cycle around back to the front of the rolodex. And then they only play what, collectively, that group of 3 or 4 musicans happens to all know how to play. Which, way more often than not, turns out to be lowest-common-denominator tunes, the likes of which are what you pretty much exclusively what you hear on the Jam-Session things on Saturday afternoon, for the old folks.

You know, tunes played as faster "midtempo" things that pass for heat, when they barely generate warmth. (Getting to Soul Stream's point about "Energy"!!!! And specifically about a complete lack of energy - which is what I hear all the time.)

And, how about playing a cheezy keyboard on stage, on some generic "keyboard" setting (or pseudo-"piano" setting), even when there's a frickin' grand piano on the same stage and everything!!! (The guy was too lazy to move over to the piano, and he wanted to play the "organ" settings on the keyboard for some tunes -- Yeah, it's the same guy I bitched about above in an earlier post -- and (although I won't mention names), he's one of the 3 or 4 best-known local piano-players in all of Kansas City.)

Anyway, I think you hopefully are starting to get the picture.

There's about a dozen quality cats in town, and the rest are just plain boring as hell...

( Or at least this is based on the guys who are actually getting gigs. Maybe there's much better, but (maybe) younger(?) guys out there? - who just don't network enough, or who don't network with the right people? - in order to get gigs? I don't know what the problem is. All the guys I'm bitching about are in their 40's and 50's, or 60's. Mostly guys who gig several nights a week, and are "well known" in the Kansas City jazz community - for better or worse. )

Edited July 22, 2003 by Rooster_Ties

[jlhoots]

What saves us here in New Mexico is Tom Guralnick & The Outpost Performance Space in Albuquerque. They bring in exciting performers. Prices are reasonable. Seats about 200, no smoking, no booze. Members get discounts on tickets. All in all a great place to hear jazz.

[Jim Alfredson]

It is about connecting to an audience. Sometimes this is impossible due to any number of circumstances, but I'm trying to learn how to do it myself. All I know is when I feel like people aren't listening and don't care, it's hard to play well. But when I connect to the audience I feel like I can play anything and they'll dig it because I'm digging it.

[Joe G]

What saves us here in New Mexico is Tom Guralnick & The Outpost Performance Space in Albuquerque. They bring in exciting performers. Prices are reasonable. Seats about 200, no smoking, no booze. Members get discounts on tickets. All in all a great place to hear jazz.

Right! Let's shift into talking about what's good about the hometown scene...

[Rooster_Ties]

Right! Let's shift into talking about what's good about the hometown scene...

Yeah, enough of Rooster's bitching. What's his problem anyway???

[J Larsen]

Not much happening here in New York City...

[J Larsen]

Seriously, though - I really miss Small's.

[Soul Stream]

I agree, that standards - in and of themselves - are not the problem.  Well chosen standards are always welcome.

But hearing "All The Things You Are" or "How High The Moon", and exclusively those kinds of tired warhorses, is what I'm refering to.  I honestly think "Green Dolphin Street" would even be out of character for many of these more 'tired' acts to play.  And certainly you'll never hear "Round Midnight".

I will admit that probably most of the bands - actual groups that have fairly consistent line-ups from gig to gig - are usually half-way decent (and sometimes even excellent - a couple local groups come to mind).  But half or more of what passes for jazz in this town are free-lancers who put together gigs with 'pickup' guys, a different guy every gig, for every chair - until they cycle around back to the front of the rolodex.  And then they only play what, collectively, that group of 3 or 4 musicans happens to all know how to play.  Which, way more often than not, turns out to be lowest-common-denominator tunes, the likes of which are what you pretty much exclusively what you hear on the Jam-Session things on Saturday afternoon, for the old folks.

You know, tunes played as faster "midtempo" things that pass for heat, when they barely generate warmth.  (Getting to Soul Stream's point about "Energy"!!!!  And specifically about a complete lack of energy - which is what I hear all the time.)

And, how about playing a cheezy keyboard on stage, on some generic "keyboard" setting (or pseudo-"piano" setting), even when there's a frickin' grand piano on the same stage and everything!!! (The guy was too lazy to move over to the piano, and he wanted to play the "organ" settings on the keyboard for some tunes -- Yeah, it's the same guy I bitched about above in an earlier post -- and (although I won't mention names), he's one of the 3 or 4 best-known local piano-players in all of Kansas City.)

Anyway, I think you hopefully are starting to get the picture.

There's about a dozen quality cats in town, and the rest are just plain boring as hell...

( Or at least this is based on the guys who are actually getting gigs.  Maybe there's much better, but (maybe) younger(?) guys out there? - who just don't network enough, or who don't network with the right people? - in order to get gigs?  I don't know what the problem is.  All the guys I'm bitching about are in their 40's and 50's, or 60's.  Mostly guys who gig several nights a week, and are "well known" in the Kansas City jazz community - for better or worse. )

Just a point about the "pick-up" band thing. And I speak totally from experience as someone who does this sort of "pick-up" band all the time. I play usually 2 to 5 times a week and almost every gig consists of at least 1 different player. Although it's a revolving cast, I feel it's the best way to play good music. Why? Because the best players in town are always busy (drummers especially). When I have a gig, I start with the best and go down the list. Sometimes the best can do it, other times they can't because they're booked. Even my 2 weekly gigs where I have the same 2 guys for the most part are up in the air as far as personel at least once a month because a higher paying gig comes up, ect.

In a way, that's why those "tired old warhorses" are played all the time. Because the BEST players revolve. No matter where the scene. I gave up trying to do obscure, original or hard to relate on the bandstand songs long ago. Because EVERY gig is thrown together in a way. To have a group of guys commit to a project is rare. BECAUSE OF MONEY!!!! You have to have the gig before you have the group for the most part. Unless you're willing to work with people who are over-available (meaning not as good usually.)

Through trial and error I've realized I want the BEST players on the stand I can get. The best originals and obscure standards in the world don't mean jack if the person playing it isn't very good.

Given, it's not an ideal situation for the listener or player. But it's real life. Matter of fact, I've got to play a gig in a couple of hours with a drummer I've never played with. We'll get through the gig playing things we both know. That's how music works best. Sadly, that means "tired old warhorses" sometimes due to real life creeping in.

Edited July 22, 2003 by Soul Stream

[Free For All]

OK Rooster, you've successfully taunted me into joining the active membership. Be careful what you wish for!

I'm relatively new to the KC area, so I've been an objective observer while gradually becoming a contributing member of the jazz community. I believe, however naive it might sound, that if you present a quality product people will respond. I don't think it matters if the material is original or familiar- I think the presentation makes all the difference. I think audiences get bored (I know I do) listening to a group that suffers from "format stagnation"- the same routine of head/solos/trading that echoes the jam session mentality. I tend to appreciate any kind of music, not just jazz, that has an obvious amount of thought put into the presentation. I think a good jazz performance is a balance of ENTERTAINMENT and EDUCATION- this fulfills the needs of both musician and audience. By "entertainment" I don't mean stupid "stage schtick"- I mean the structured elements of the arrangement that require tight ensemble playing, like solo send-offs, shout choruses, etc. I think audiences can relate to a performance that includes these elements more than a constant barrage of the head/solos format. By including some of these elements of the familiar, you can develop what I believe is a sense of "trust" with your audience, which enables you to include some of the less familiar things (the "education" element) that often are more artistically satisfying to the performer. I don't believe in "lowering the bar" musically just to reach the audience, but I also don't believe you should have an attitude of "I got mine, you get yours" toward them.

That being said, I have found many (not all) of the jazz fans here in KC to be stuck in the period of the late 30's, when KC was a jazz center, leaving them often less than interested in anything too innovative. Here's the irony- the thing that was great about that period of jazz is that it was INNOVATIVE for its time. Therefore it seems that people should embrace the concept of INNOVATION, but what they actually do is embrace the concept of NOSTALGIA-recreation of the EXACT musical styles of that era. You could say that the players contribute to this by playing "old" tunes, but I think the jazz language has evolved to the point that there are many ways to approach playing on familiar tunes. I'm a believer in this "old wine, new bottle" concept as a way to keep these standards sounding fresh. Familiar material, new package.

Wow, sorry for that preachy first post. I promise not to do that all the time! I am excited to be joining the membership, having followed the board since way back into the BN days. I think I know many of you through mutual friends (it really IS a small world) and I look forward to participating. The tone of this board is overall really positive, which I think is a vast improvment over the BNBB. By the way, my screen name reflects my admiration of a favorite Blakey side as well as a tune by one of my favorite trombonists. Bright moments to you all!

[Joe G]

Welcome aboard, FFA!

[Rooster_Ties]

Welcome aboard, FFA!

Welcome aboard, "Free For All"!!!!

Glad to have you here, although you've been here already, in a way, for years!!!!

Great first post, and I look forward to many more!!! -- Rooster T.

[JSngry]

Where's Jim??

Jim's been sleeping!

Not much to add here, except that having jazz as an accoutrement in a fine® dining establishment creates an inherent conflict, and that just because it's "jazz" doen't mean it's good - something that a LOT of musicians seemingly refuse to accept.

[Rooster_Ties]

Another day, another perspective. Man, maybe it was something I ate yesterday, but I sure went off on the KC jazz scene, didn't I??

I still stand by most of it, although I might temper my thoughts a bit here and there, if I had it to do over again. And maybe in hindsight, I'd say that probably only half of the jazz in KC simply bores me to tears. (I suppose from my posts above, you might get the idea that nearly all of it does - which isn't quite the case.)

Also, to be a little clearer about my position on Standards, I should probably say this...

It's the 10% of "The Real Book" that gets played most frequently that really annoys the heck out of me, and I'll venture to say that I think that's about what every other tune is (50% of their playlists) from the half of the Kansas City jazz musicians that I'm complaining about so much in this thread.

But, I should acknowledge that there are quite a few guys that don't just play the obvious standards, and for that - I'm always grateful.

Edited July 23, 2003 by Rooster_Ties

[Rooster_Ties]

Also, Jim's post (just above this one) made a really good point, about food and jazz. At this moment (mid-2003), nearly every jazz club/bar is primarily a restaurant, or at the very lease a combination of a real jazz bar (sorta, mostly), and a real restaurant (with a full-service kitchen, nightly specials, etc...). Off the top of my head, there are only a couple jazz bars in town that don't derive a fairly high percentage of their income from the food they sell. And there’s only really one good jazz-bar in town that doesn’t have a kitchen – and they have an endowment that keeps them open, because they’re attached to the American Jazz Museum (technically they’re part of the museum), down in the historic 18th & Vine area.

That, more than anything, should tell you a bunch about what the jazz-scene is like here in Kansas City, if almost every jazz venue is primarily a chow-house. I'm sure that shoehorns in the musicians a ton, such that they can't stretch out on anything until at least the 2nd set, or not even until the 3rd set - most nights. (Wouldn’t want to disturb the dinner conversation and all.)

Things were a little better even as recently as nearly 10 years ago (when I first moved here), in terms of jazz-clubs - but probably not a whole lot better. I think the biggest blow to the jazz-club scene was when Riverboat Gambling was legalized in the state of Missouri (around 1995 or 96), and within one year - there were suddenly five (5!!!) huge "Riverboat" gambling complexes open, each with like 4 or 5 big restaurants. That drained a TON of customers from the "over 30"-centric nightclubs, which included most of the jazz-clubs. Any that were doing "OK" (in the black more often than in the red), just couldn't handle the loss in customers (even just a 20% loss in customers was enough to put them in the red more often than black), and many clubs had to call it quits.

After that, almost any jazz-bar that doesn't have a full-service kitchen - is almost always doomed to failure.

Not sure where this is going, but it does give you some additional perspective on the Kansas City jazz scene over the last 10 years. Doesn't look like it's going to change any, anytime in the near future either.

[JSngry]

Well, the restaurant thing is good, because it provides giggage, but it's kinda NOT good, because it tends to attract people who ant jazz as a lifestyle accessory, if you know what I mean. They don't want jazz, they want "jazz". That's a drag, but so is unemployment...

OTOH, if we had to depend on REAL jazz fans to support a scene, how much of a scene would there be? In a lot of cities, that would mean musicians and a relatively small handful of other folks. Whoopie! If that's not the scene in the town "you're" (meaning whoever reads this), congratulations!

Let's face it - in most of America, jazz is really not a music that has relevance to most people other than some vague "image" to draw upon as needed (which is very seldom, and is usually very shallowly). The "smooth" stuff seems to be an exception, though. So what's the message THERE, huh? Well, I think there are several, some good, and some not good, but the bottom line (get me started on this in detail and I'll type all damn day, which I do NOT have the time for...) is that for most folks, going out to hear the same old same old played by cats who don't really care if they're playing for an audience or in a jam session by themselves is not something that's going to be, un, "endearing". So you can play "Just Friends" really, REALLY well. B.F.D.. Can you play it really, REALLY well WITH PERSONALITY, offer people something besides a sample of what got you an "A" in improv class? Can you tell a story that somebody wants to hear?

If you can't, either play something you CAN tell a story on (even if it's...gasp...COMMERCIAL SOUNDING :eek: ) or else keep your jazz playing to yourself. If watching data entry turned people on, then the offices of America would come replete with bleachers, no? Well, listening to a bunch of cats who know all the answers before the questions are even going about routinely giving the correct answers to every question asked is about like the musical equivalent of data entry.

You'd think that this much would be evident to all concerned, but I guess not...

[Rooster_Ties]

Well, listening to a bunch of cats who know all the answers before the questions are even going about routinely giving the correct answers to every question asked is about like the musical equivalent of data entry.

Amen to that.

I want surprises. Even little surprises. I want left turns in solos. I want wrong turns in solos. I want chord substitutions that don't always work, but somehow the cat makes it work (at least a little bit) on some other level - on some less "academically" correct level.

I wan't some uncertanty in what a cat's playing - not cuz he can't play, but cuz he's actually thinking about what to play, and sometimes he can't always think of everything that would be interesting to play, until a couple seconds after he shoulda actually played it.

I want some stubbling around, a little jaggedness. (That's why I love Neil Young's electric guitar work, precisely because it is so clunkly.) I want to hear somebody actually take that request I often make, for them to play "Take 5"... ...in 7... ...and somehow, make it kinda, sorta work - or at least noodle a bit on the head for 60 seconds, and then tell me there's no fucking way!!!

(A relevant side note: One guy said he couldn't/wouldn't play "Take 5" in 7, but he thought he could play Sonny Rollin's "Blue 7" in 5 - and he thought about it a minute, talked to the rhythm section - and he did!!! )

Is some of that too much to ask?? (OK, maybe asking for "Take 5" in 7 really is too much to ask. )