How's your local jazz scene???

[Jim Alfredson]

Not at all. I love it when listeners are engaged to the point where they make requests that are interesting.

So is it academia that's killing jazz or the attitude of academia? From my experience, my participation in academia could very well have killed my playing and it's taken some time to get that out of my system. The attitude when I was in school was "it's played this way... you have to do it this way... the way you're doing it is wrong... why do you want to play that?... that's wrong..." etc. I think my old teacher would be horrified by our record (I sent him one... never heard from him). But I'm extremely proud of it and happy with the direction the group is going.

Concerning pick-up gigs, it is hard. One of the reasons we choose a band name, rather than calling the group "The Jim Alfredson Trio" or whatever is that we are an actual group. There is no substitution in our group. It's hard to do... sometimes one of the three of us has to give up a higher paying gig to play a trio gig, but that's just the sacrifice we have to make. In fact, I'm giving up a $400+ weekend with the blues/R&B band I play with to play two nights with the trio this weekend for WAY less than that. But we're a group... that's what we have to do.

One of my biggest bitches about modern jazz is that very few groups actually stick together. I loved that record Brecker did with Larry Goldings, Metheny, and the three different drummers, but I knew they'd never do another one. It was a one-off project and we'll probably never see them together again.

And you can hear it on record or in a performance when a group actually plays together often. I think that's one of the things that sets our record apart from a lot of other records... from the first note you can hear that we play together a lot. It makes a difference. Like Larry Goldings trio with Bernstein and Bill Stewart... those guys have been playing together for over 10 years. And you can hear it from note one.

[Soul Stream]

I think part of the problem is the availability of so much GREAT music on Cds and vinyl. When a local player solos, in the minds of the listener he's ultimately compared with Miles, Trane, Philly Joe, JJ Johnson, Jimmy Smith, ect. Why? Well, because for the most part people who are truely into jazz as listeners are usually listening to recordings long, long before they make (if ever) an effort to see live local jazz on a regular basis. When that happens, the listener tends to think how lame the scene is, Hell, they've been listening to Trane all day at home, and now this (local) guy sounds like crap relatively speaking.

It used to be jazz was part of the black culture. Musicians would rise up from the culture, learn, progress and be nurtured by the audience. Encouraged by the masses. That's not the case now. Jazz has failed to continue as a community experience. Just a couple things to think about when you think your local guys aren't doing too well. Personally, I have a lot of respect for anybody trying to play jazz. It's not an easy way out musically or financially. They obviously do it for the love of it.

Matter of fact, I have a lot of respect for anyone trying to make it in music. As long as it's not motivated by the thought of stardom. If expression is the goal, I try to admire what almost any musician is trying to do.

....Also, I think that's great the B3-er has a group that sticks together. It really bodes well in the longrun for ALL of you. Caring about the music should be first for all musicians ultimately, and sticking with a group is the first step imho. However, like you said Jim, sacrificing MONEY is very, very hard to do. Especially when you're trying to make a living at it. Also, on another note. My "pick-up" drummer last night turned out to be an absolute monster. One of the best I've worked with locally and may well end up being the first call from now on. Unlike many drummers, he knows how to swing an organ trio to death! So, the nature of pickup bands is also another way to meet and play with people you wouldn't otherwise get a chance to play with. And sometimes that's a VERY good thing.

Edited July 23, 2003 by Soul Stream

[Eric]

Hey Rooster and Free for All,

I live in KC and must admit that I have not seen live jazz here in a couple of years. Frankly, I am not even sure where to go anymore. I used to go to Jardines quite a bit and sometime the jazz club at Plaza III.

I do hear live music - at the Levee (typcially funk bands) and BBs (blues of course). It is rather sad, there just does not seem to be much action here. I do hear live jazz, but typically when I travel to NY. I would love to hook up with you guys some time and check out the scene.

Eric

[randissimo]

It is about connecting to an audience.  Sometimes this is impossible due to any number of circumstances, but I'm trying to learn how to do it myself.  All I know is when I feel like people aren't listening and don't care, it's hard to play well.  But when I connect to the audience I feel like I can play anything and they'll dig it because I'm digging it.

When it appears that the audience isn't listening is when we have to examine just what we are doing and how we are projecting ourselves at that moment, and try to "rise to the challenge" and get their attention .. If we look bored, the audience notices...

Next time we are in that situation where the audience seems to be a bit apathetic, we should pull out halloween masks to see if they notice.. HeeHee!

Seriously, when it appears that hardly anybody seems to be listening, try and put yourself in the audience, listening to the band and think about how you yourself would react at that moment... There is an art form to tuning in a room and getting people to listen.. Sometimes just shifting gears to a funky blues shuffle (maybe w/ a vocal) can get the crowd back.

Also, talking to the audience even though you think they are not listening helps make a personal connection,, like explaining the thoughts that went into composing, maybe a story behind a particular tune, be it an original or a standard..

It's about presentation... I know I get even hungier for a dish when the chef tells me about the ingredience and preparation of the entree

Edited July 24, 2003 by randissimo

[Rooster_Ties]

Often it's the drummers that refocus my attention the most, if I'm distracted.

A really good drummer, especially if he's suddenly doing something tasty and unexpected, can snap my head about 180-degrees, faster than almost anything.

[Dan Gould]

It's about presentation... I know I get even hungier for a dish when the chef tells me about the ingredience and preparation of the entree

Funny, that's the time that I want to tell "our waiter this evening, Brad" to shut the fuck up and go place the order.

[Soul Stream]

I feel like some good old fashion banter between every few songs does a good job at connecting with the audience. There is a real art to "being yourself" behind a microphone. If you're having a good time, most likely the audience is too. Fun is contagious. So is boredom and apathy. Also that "jazz" thing...."miles and coltrane didn't talk to the audience." Well, I don't buy that for a minute. We're in the entertainment business. Plain and simple. Also, I don't be "schtick" either, or that BS pre-canned banter people do. I mean an honest "hello, i'm so and so and let's try and have some fun together tonight." Genuine-ness, no matter how awkward you feel about talking, helps grease the wheels of a show.

I saw Steve Turre this year. His band is all about the music obviously. But he still talked to the audience and admitted "hey, i'm not very good on the mic, or comedic, but here's what we're doing up here. hope you dig it. we love playing it for you." Shit like that is real and connects.

Edited July 23, 2003 by Soul Stream

[Free For All]

Regarding the comments about the positive/negative effects of academia-

I think negative experiences in school jazz programs are most often the fault of specific teachers/administrators. Jazz education CAN be a very valuable and useful thing- it's important to realize that not all the students who go through such a program are going to become players; they will also become the audience, and an educated audience is certainly something we need. They're the ones most often sitting up front LISTENING at the gig. The loud and obnoxious ones in the rear also paid the cover, however!

As far as the students who go through a jazz program with the intention locating to a city and working full-time-

I think a good jazz curriculum should prepare sudents for what they will encounter "out there" in the working/gigging world. Unfortunately too many "jazz educators" have never themselves experienced this, so how can they effectively prepare students? I have had several excellent teachers who were never full-time professional players, and I've also studied with full-time players who were lousy teachers. I think students should choose schools by seeking someone to study with, not purely by the rep of the school. Many of the high-profile jazz schools have an impressive list of faculty who in reality are infrequently on-campus.

I also think effective jazz education does more than turn out clones of studied players/styles. Studying players and learning transcriptions is a MEANS to an END, not an END in itself. I think it's important to teach students to think for themselves; I love it when a student challenges me on some concept, instead of sitting there like a deer in the headlights. I think students should leave a program knowing a lot of tunes (yes, Rooster, I mean STANDARDS!) since integrating into a new jazz scene usually means starting at a jam session, where first impressions are formed.

There has to be a middle ground between "figure it out for yourself" and "do what I say", however- some students will rationalize playing "out" as a means to circumvent learning the language/dialect of bop, for example. After they learn to deal with that, THEN they can tell me why it's tired, etc. and I'll be more inclined to listen.

It's also important for students to leave a program with as many skills as possible- we're sending them into a world where there is little work, much of which will have to be created by themselves. Simply saying "But I have a JAZZ DEGREE" doesn't mean SQUAT in the playing world (in academia, however, it usually does mean more). I've been saved in lean times by writing/transcribing skills, teaching skills, ability to sight read and play different styles of music- WAY different! Many things that I wouldn't want to share. <shudder>

The point is that these things have helped out with the reality of rent, etc. but haven't deterred the pursuit of the artistically satisfying gig (that often pays much less). I often think of the "jobbing gig" (club date, etc.) in terms of the existence of the "unholy trinity"- TUX, BUX and SUX.

Anyway, that just scratches the surface of this topic.

I must learn to make shorter posts.

[Joe G]

Free For All, forget the short posts--I'm picking up what you're laying down!

the "unholy trinity"- TUX, BUX and SUX.

Or as we like to call it: White, polite, and UPTIGHT!

[Free For All]

Here's an tangential education-related topic that could almost be a separate thread (although I wouldn't be sure where to post it):

"Things you would like to hear students say"

Here are a few that come to mind:

1. "I know you told me to transcribe the first chorus, but I went ahead and did the whole solo."

2. "I was listening to a recording of Dear Old Stockholm and realized the Real Book changes were wrong, so I fixed them."

3. "I didn't go to the party after the concert, I

felt like practicing."

(at a gig)

4. "Did you hear him quote that Sonny Rollins solo?"

5. "They're playing different changes than the ones we learned."

6. "Can I buy you a beer?" (OK, kidding on that one....sort of)

Obviously the common thread here is the student going beyond what is "assigned" and using his/her ears and brain and generally being self-motivated. To me, getting students to this point is the hardest part of the "battle". Once they become self-motivated the teaching becomes much easier and rewarding.

I can see a contrary thread evolving (devolving) from this- like

"Things you DON'T want to hear your students say"

"My grandma thinks you're hot"

[Rooster_Ties]

Although I'm not a jazz musician (I dabbled once with jazz piano lessons, for one semester, during my senior year of college), I will say that I think that now I would be much more inclined to go that extra mile (now), when I'm in my early 30's (or even back when I was in my mid-to-late 20's), than I ever would have been in high school or even in college.

There wasn't any suject (music, or otherwise) that I ever got all that passionate about, until I was at least 25 or 26.

Something about being young - or younger, anyway - that often keeps one from digging really deeply into something, or even anything. Stuff like that all seems like so much work, to a 'kid' in his teens or even early 20's.

I know not all students are like that, but I know many are - including myself, back in the day.

[randissimo]

It's about presentation... I know I get even hungier for a dish when the chef tells me about the ingredience and preparation of the entree 

Funny, that's the time that I want to tell "our waiter this evening, Brad" to shut the fuck up and go place the order.

[Jim Alfredson]

I think my biggest problem in the jazz program I took part in is that I felt that there was little or no respect for my instrument. I play organ. I am not a pianist in any way shape or form. I play organ. That's it. Piano and organ are two completely different instruments with totally different techniques and physical demands. When I went into the jazz program they made me play piano, even though they had a beautiful mid-60s B3 with a 122RV Leslie sitting in the same room in the corner. It drove me nuts! I don't want to play piano. I play ORGAN!

I enjoyed learning Horace Silver solos and listening to Bud Powell. They are obviously two strong influences on Jimmy Smith. But I hated having to be in a combo with a bassist that couldn't even play an F-blues without reading the individual notes off the page! The whole time I'm thinking, "Jesus, I could play a better bass line than this chump with one foot!" (haha!) It wasn't until mid-way through my second year that they let me play organ but then when I started bringing in stuff by Larry Young I would get shot down by the department head because he didn't like that stuff. He thought it was "cornball".

I did learn a lot in school, but to be obvious I've learned WAY more by playing in the scene and I'm not even talking about the jazz scene ('cos there isn't one here really). I've been playing with an R&B band for the past five or so years and I've learned so much more with them than I ever had in school about music, presentation, audiences, drug use and abuse, booking, etc.

[Free For All]

At least you didn't have to play in the marching band.

Edited July 26, 2003 by Free For All

[Jim Alfredson]

I played alto in middle/high school marching band in order to please my mom. She never forced me to, mind you. But she was always so excited to come see me march at the football games. She came to every single one. She was a sweetheart.

I wish I had kept playing alto and found a teacher that could actually teach me something. Our band director was an idiot. I could never get the tone I wanted out of the instrument so I gave up. I recently bought a tenor and I'm trying to re-learn.

[Free For All]

Ah, a good son. That certainly counts for a lot in the big picture. God Bless Mom.

I tell ya, having the right teacher at the formative stage can make all the difference. But it seems to me that "b3-er" has a better ring to it than "Selmer Mark VI-er", though I think Sangrey might disagree. I often wish I played a second instrument, although I most feel that trying to keep my shit together on ONE axe is PLENTY enough.

[Free For All]

By the way, Jim, as a new guy I'd like to say thanks for the new home. I've been a lurker since way back into the BNBB, and this space you've created is infinitely more comfortable, and I think the spirit of the posts generally reflects this. Although I think it's funny that Hardbop won't set foot in here, is that because you chose not to play the alto?

Edited July 26, 2003 by Free For All

[JSngry]

But it seems to me that "b3-er" has a better ring to it than "Selmer Mark VI-er", though I think Sangrey might disagree.

Nah. With tenor and organ, we're talking one of nature's great combinations, like ham and eggs or Jack and Coke.

[Free For All]

"TENORGAN"-issimo?

[kenny weir]

Wow, I finally got 'round to reading this thread - and it's made me realise (not for the first time, mind you) just how lucky I am to be living right here in Melbourne.

We're a city of 3 million people, but going by the posts here and elsewhere, it seems we have a robust, fertile scene that is equal of any US city outside NY or Chicago.

Melbourne has a couple of full-time jazz clubs, but many many other venues that carry jazz on a casual basis - well as community arts centres, bars, restaurants etc.

Outside of Bennetts Lane (ranges from very good mainstream to very good AND very adventurous mainstream to avant garde) and Dizzy's (mainstream with a lot of vocalists), there are faces and places with which I am only slightly familiar - the Planet Cafe, the Make It Up Club, the weekly offshoot of last year's innaugural Half Bent Festival - that present really innovative and challenging and original sounds.

In bands such as Ishish and the Adam Simmon's Toy Band and many more, we have a milieu in which the Quartet Out heard on Live At The Meat House, just for instance, could feel right at home.

You do hear the odd standard or bop chestnut - largely due, I suspect, to the revolving player situation mentioned earlier in the thread - but overwhelmingly the accent is on original material, or at least really original treatment of familiar stuff.

Sydney has it's own thing going, although perhaps not as strongly as Melbourne, and both cities benefit from the regular influx of young players from other parts of the country. And both Melbourne and Sydney boast their share of elder statesmen - Mike Nock, Bob Sedergreen, Bernie McGann, Allan Browne, Joe Chindamo and many more - who invariably both benefit from the youth factor and inspire it.

The likes of Dale Barlow and Nock used to have to move to the US or Europe to try to make it big. They both live in Sydney now. And these days young and aspiring players tend to visit overseas cities such as NY for study periods of 6 months or a year, and then return home. At the same time, international tours have become more regular - although I expect precious few of the denizens of this board (or AAJ/JC) have seen'heard an Aussie play!

Between them, Melbourne and Sydney have a handful of labels that document all this, and the results can be breathtaking.

It is one of the greatest frustrations of my life that this music is so little heard outside Australia - or even outside the southern hemisphere.

Those who have heard some of this stuff, I'm pleased to report, are very happy campers indeed. (Check out the ongoing AAJ BB thread in which a couple of regulars, God bless 'em, are actually laying down some serious bread for Oz releases I have suggested - and really digging them).

In some ways, coming from such a heavy R&B background and these days being a very serious hard bop head, I wish there were more hard bop/soul jazz things going on around here.

For instance, a band called Milestones has just started a Saturday afternoon residency in an inner-city Melbourne venue/bar. They're doing the whole hard bop repertoire - Hubbard, Davis, Golson etc etc. When I first heard about this, I got real excited.

But you know what? I'll probably be a little disappointed when/if I get round to checking it out.

'Coz the truth is, that through regular gig-going - and excellent bashes such as the Wangaratta and Melbourne Jazz Festivals (where experience has taught me the Oz artists almost invariably produce far greater firworks than whatever international artists are brought in) - have taught me and the rest of the Australian jazz audience to really respect and eagerly anticipate the adventurous and the unknown and the wild. No matter what your record collection looks like.

(And that's probably another good thing about Melbourne audience and the Melbourne scene - there is, I suspect, relatively little presure exerted by jazz nerds such as myself. I'd guess 99.99 per cent of the paying public wouldn't give a rat's arse about the latest Blue Note reissues)

If I had been living in, say, NY and could've gone and seen hard bop or something like it whenever I felt like some live music, I hate to think how much ridiculously fine magic I may have missed out on.

Living in Melbourne/Sydney/Australia and digging jazz means, by definition, having big ears.

I guess part of our strength, too, is that in having a relatively small talent pool means musicians are forced to pursue what must sometimes seem like incredibly unlikely relationships and unions, and also that most players can and do play in a variety of genres. The aforementioned Adam Simmons, for instance, plays EVERY kind of saxophone for a variety of raucous (sorry Adam!) avant garde/new music outfits, performs regularly in a Hammond combo setting and plays on a weekly basis with a popular for-dancers swing outfit.

I guess there would be Melbourne players who would disagree with much what I have just written, and certainly being a full-time jazz musician here is far, far, far from an easy gig.

But the tyranny of distance that has often been seen as such a handicap in terms of the arts in Australia has in jazz at least - delicious irony - had profound and happy consequences.

[Jim Alfredson]

It's definately hard to do two instruments. I find I hardly have the time to practice the sax. When I do have time to practice I usually hit the organ in order to write some tunes or figure out things that have been in my head for a few days.

Kenny, the Austrailian scene sounds very healthy! Organissimo needs to do an International TOUR!

[randissimo]

It's definately hard to do two instruments. I find I hardly have the time to practice the sax. When I do have time to practice I usually hit the organ in order to write some tunes or figure out things that have been in my head for a few days.

Kenny, the Austrailian scene sounds very healthy! Organissimo needs to do an International TOUR!

It would be interesting to have to drive on the left side of the road

[kenny weir]

Hey, come on down!

Actually, having yerselves and Quartet Out play at one of our festivals is a little fantasy I've had tucked away in the back of my brain for a month or so now. I guess it's one of those lottery dreams, but you never know.

And of course, you get to enjoy our summer coming from your winter.

One thing you should know, though: Along with driving on the left-hand side we have a related, legislative dictate - our state law requires that Hammond players play bass with their right hands and that they have their instruments modified so they can play their pedals with their noses.

I stand by what I wrote about our scene here in Melbourne, but I guess it could be misconstrued as being about a land of milk and honey.

Like everywhere else, gigs pay badly. And there are plenty of days - and even weeks - when there vis nothing at all happening.

But still, there does seem to be a really high level of creativity and insteraction between a really diverse community of players.

One thing that has only been touched on here so far is what effects the weight of history might have.

Players here are very hip to the great figures of jazz and the music's history. Ellington, for instance, seems to imbue the work of our plethora of mid-sized combos working in the post-bop vein. But when it comes to creating their own sound, Ellington (or Basie or Coltrane or Parker or ...) is just another thing draw on.

I wonder if the "weight of history" has inhibiting effect on young musicians living/working in, say, NY or KC.

And in Melbourne, there is also much genuine interplay with the traditions represented by a robust multicultural population.

[randissimo]

Hey, come on down!

Actually, having yerselves and Quartet Out play at one of our festivals is a little fantasy I've had tucked away in the back of my brain for a month or so now. I guess it's one of those lottery dreams, but you never know.

And of course, you get to enjoy our summer coming from your winter.

One thing you should know, though: Along with driving on the left-hand side we have a related, legislative dictate - our state law requires that Hammond players play bass with their right hands and that they have their instruments modified so they can play their pedals with their noses.

I stand by what I wrote about our scene here in Melbourne, but I guess it could be misconstrued as being about a land of milk and honey.

Like everywhere else, gigs pay badly. And there are plenty of days - and even weeks - when there vis nothing at all happening.

But still, there does seem to be a really high level of creativity and insteraction between a really diverse community of players.

One thing that has only been touched on here so far is what effects the weight of history might have.

Players here are very hip to the great figures of jazz and the music's history. Ellington, for instance, seems to imbue the work of our plethora of mid-sized combos working in the post-bop vein. But when it comes to creating their own sound, Ellington (or Basie or Coltrane or Parker or ...) is just another thing draw on.

I wonder if the "weight of history" has inhibiting effect on young musicians living/working in, say, NY or KC.

And in Melbourne, there is also much genuine interplay with the traditions represented by a robust multicultural population.

There's an old friend and drum comrade who I believe lives in Sidney now.

His name is Calvin Welch. He is a great drummer and a very nice person...

If you know him or hear about him please let me know..

[Dan Gould]

Rooster,

I'm curious if your rejection of most of the KC jazz scene, does this include a sax player named Jim Mair? Or have you not caught this guy?

I ask because I just acquired his debut CD, self-produced, from the early '90s. I got it because its the final recording by Carmell Jones, but Mair impresses and I would expect that his playing is even better by now.