Thanks, GM, for more gas guzzlers

[Chuck Nessa]

I have some questions about the Prius technology and what it saves vs what it consumes.

I have two. What would you like to know?

Manufacturing technologies and real costs.

[Aggie87]

I read somewhere that for hybrid cars where there's a comparable non-hybrid (i.e. Civic), it takes about 6 yrs to actually see the financial benefit to owning a hybrid.

I don't know where I read this, but it seemed to be comparing the the additional purchase cost to the savings generated by the improved mileage (the real mileage, not what the manufacturers actually claim).

Anybody else see an article like this anyway, or am I imagining it?

[catesta]

Jim, with all due respect they will keep building them because there is a market for them.

GM is no different than Lexus, Mercedes Benz, Bentley, BMW and so on....

And you believe in the "market economy" because......................

My point being that GM is not alone in this shit.

Look at some of the huge SUV's and trucks, as well as the high horsepower cars by Lexus, Toyota, Nissan, Ford, BMW, Acura, Infiniti, Chrysler, Mercedes, Jaguar, Range Rover.....

Sure, you can give credit to companies like Toyota for stepping it up and building more environmentally friendly cars, but they are far from abandoning the higher profit larger vehicle market, If anything they continue to increase models in that line.

As long as there are the rich and the ever growing wannabe "pop culture" rich, as well as those that don't really care about the price of gas looking for these types of vehicles they (and I mean all of them) will continue to turn out the product.

We can and should expect companies like GM to kick it in high gear and increase the number of higher mileage and alternative fuel models. But in doing that should we expect GM to abandon a money making source and surrender it to the competition that has no plans to stop production of the same type of vehicles?

Just my opinions.

[Chuck Nessa]

My question still stands.

[catesta]

The shortest possible answer would be that I still believe in free enterprise.

[Chuck Nessa]

The shortest possible answer would be that I still believe in free enterprise.

Did I mention "free enterprise"?

[catesta]

Well then I guess this is all going above my head.

I'm not sure what it is your looking for.

[Jim Alfredson]

Chris, I see what you're saying about the other car manufacturers. I guess, as someone from a GM town, I'm really upset at GM because they are really screwed and instead of innovating and thinking outside the norm, they just keep churning out crap like the Escalade. Who can afford a $56,000 glorified truck?

Here in Lansing, they have closed two plants in the last year (and will probably close another). Delphi is bankrupt. Oldsmobile is gone. They are laying off employees like crazy. These new vehicles are just another nail in the coffin, in my opinion, and further proof that GM can't see more than a fiscal quarter into the future.

[Uncle Skid]

Who can afford a $56,000 glorified truck?

Answer: enough people to make it worthwhile to continue manufacturing these things. The cars and trucks that GM is making today is the result of decisions made many years ago. Let's hope things are considerably different 10 years from now.

And the core of the problem is not the car manufacturers, but us. All of us. The hybrids may be a good start, but I'm still astounded (disillusioned?) that we haven't seen any serious talk about better public transportation. Heck, how about just carpool lanes -- if California can do it, why not SE Michigan? High speed rail?

Incidentally, I seriously looked at buying an Accord Hybrid. The numbers just don't add up, unless you are driving an obscene number of miles per year. Erik, I also read many articles on the subject, and the bottom line (from a purely financial perspective) is that Hybrids, in many cases, aren't the most economical choice.

[Big Wheel]

Who can afford a $56,000 glorified truck?

Answer: enough people to make it worthwhile to continue manufacturing these things. The cars and trucks that GM is making today is the result of decisions made many years ago. Let's hope things are considerably different 10 years from now.

And the core of the problem is not the car manufacturers, but us. All of us. The hybrids may be a good start, but I'm still astounded (disillusioned?) that we haven't seen any serious talk about better public transportation. Heck, how about just carpool lanes -- if California can do it, why not SE Michigan? High speed rail?

Incidentally, I seriously looked at buying an Accord Hybrid. The numbers just don't add up, unless you are driving an obscene number of miles per year. Erik, I also read many articles on the subject, and the bottom line (from a purely financial perspective) is that Hybrids, in many cases, aren't the most economical choice.

For one thing, the layout of newer cities (versus the East Coast, SF to some extent, and the core of LA) makes it a lot tougher to create well-functioning rail systems with a non-crazy price tag. At least that's how I understand it. Car pool lanes should sort of be an obvious short-term solution, as long as they can be shown to not make traffic in the other lanes way more awful. In fact, I'm riding in the carpool lane on the 101 Freeway as I type this post!

One company I know of is giving $5000 on top of the federal tax break to employees if they buy a hybrid. That makes it pretty close to a smart financial decision as well as an environmentally friendly one.

[BERIGAN]

It's not just GM Jim. Check out what the dopes at Ford did with the Lincoln SUV!!!!

http://www.hissandpop.com/celebrities/f/fa...fawcett-020.jpg

Is this supposed to be funny? I must be missing something.

Sorry! I pasted the Farrah photo on a different thread, and even though I'd swear I had copied the other link to the new Lincoln, I guess not! fixed now.

Edited March 30, 2006 by BERIGAN

[BERIGAN]

The shortest possible answer would be that I still believe in free enterprise.

5 more years on this board, and you won't!

[Guy Berger]

I'm more or less with Chris -- if people want to buy gas-guzzling cars, let 'em. We should penalize them more at the pump.

Guy

[Uncle Skid]

You're right - not on that Honda Hybrid are you're gonna come out ahead because it's not a true hybrid and gets a paltry 25 mpg. Still, for gas mileage, reliability (most problem-free), customer satisfaction ("would you buy this car again?"), and ageing more gracefully (less problems as they age), I'll stick with my Prius'.

Yes, the decision was not very difficult in this case. I ended up getting the non-hybrid version, and I average >30 mpg on the highway. City has been around 25-26. I average well less than 10,000 miles per year, as I work at home most of the time, so high gas prices don't hurt me as bad as some.

The Prius and the Civic Hybrid are on the short list for next car. Now that we have our "big family" car (the Accord), we can get something smaller next time.

The Honda was my first non GM car. That was a difficult decision.

[Jazzmoose]

And the core of the problem is not the car manufacturers, but us. All of us. The hybrids may be a good start, but I'm still astounded (disillusioned?) that we haven't seen any serious talk about better public transportation. Heck, how about just carpool lanes -- if California can do it, why not SE Michigan? High speed rail?

[Noj]

I won't buy anything but a Honda or a Toyota, based on what I've read in Consumer Reports. Everything else is a lemon! The Toyota Prius is the highest rated vehicle, receiving top marks in all categories.

I drive a Honda Element. It kicks ass! Decent gas mileage, full-time 4-wheel drive so I can mash up to the snow, plus it was designed by an Art Center grad.

[BruceH]

Chris, I see what you're saying about the other car manufacturers. I guess, as someone from a GM town, I'm really upset at GM because they are really screwed and instead of innovating and thinking outside the norm, they just keep churning out crap like the Escalade. Who can afford a $56,000 glorified truck?

Here in Lansing, they have closed two plants in the last year (and will probably close another). Delphi is bankrupt. Oldsmobile is gone. They are laying off employees like crazy. These new vehicles are just another nail in the coffin, in my opinion, and further proof that GM can't see more than a fiscal quarter into the future.

Save some of your anger for congress, which still (still!!) keeps the SUV loophole in the MPG regulations. (The same loophole which was originally supposed to apply to trucks and farm vehicles, but which SUV's have been driving through for 15 or more years.)

As for GM, personally, I believe investing in more fuel-efficient technology is just "thinking" not thinking outside the norm. Assuming that gas prices will remain artificially low forever, well, that can't be called thinking at all.

[BruceH]

Anyone see the "60 Minutes" report on GM last night?

(Seriously, cuz I taped it, but haven't watched it yet.)

[catesta]

Anyone see the "60 Minutes" report on GM last night?

(Seriously, cuz I taped it, but haven't watched it yet.)

I did.

Very informative. They discussed the pensions and health care plan the company is burried in. Some of the numbers will blow your mind. The payroll for retired employees is almost unbelievable.

[ejp626]

"Our revised data show that if buyers are able

to take advantage of limited federal-tax credits,

two hybrids, the Toyota Prius and Honda Civic Hybrid,

are projected to cost $400 and $300 less than their all-gas

counterparts, respectively."

A major correction methinks...

Yes, but there are other articles discussing how these tax-credits are running out, and that new buyers of hybrids won't have access to them.