The Brothers!

[Allan Songer]

Bill Perkins was a great player--especially in the last 20 years of his life. I was lucky enough to hear him play dozens and dozens on times both in causal local gigs and with the Holman Big Band where he was by far the most interesting soloist in the sax section. He made his living playing the the Tonight Show band but did all his great work in a bunch of nameless clubs all over greater L.A. I remember him blowing a soprano solo on "Bemsha Swing" about 15 years ago that I STILL think about. I went to his final gig at Charlie O's about 6 weeks before he passed away and he could barely stand but when he played it was like magic--the best I heard him play in the last 2-3 years of his life while he was battling cancer and a bunch of other maladies. And then he was gone.

The albums he made in the last twenty years were pretty good too. If you want to hear the Bill Perkins I loved and remember so vividly, check out "Remebrance of Dino's"

Another really strong effort is "Frame of Mind" on Interplay from the late 90's.

On the strength of these recordings and all the live stuff I heard over the years I am of the opinion that Perkins' talent was a lot bigger than almost anyone gives him credit for--I certainly place him ahead of Cohn and Kamuca, that's for damn sure!

[Larry Kart]

The best latter-day Perkins I know, very much in the groove of "Frame of Mind," is on Lennie Niehaus' "Patterns" (1989) and "Seems Like Old Times" (1997), both on Fresh Sound. Niehaus and Perkins (Jack Nimitz is added on "Seems Like Old Times") were a very well-matched pair -- when they improvise simultaneously, it sounds like Niehaus is reading Perkins' mind, which I would guess was not an easy thing to do.

[JSngry]

For all the talk/associtions of Perkins w/Prez & Rollins, he repeatedly told Pete that his favorite tenorist was Paul Gonsalvez.

[Larry Kart]

"Pete" is Christlieb?

[Chuck Nessa]

"Pete" is Christlieb?

Likely Pete Gallio.

[Larry Kart]

Right -- the other half of the Meat House team.

[JSngry]

Correctamundo.

[JSngry]

Shoulda clarified, my bad.

And I'm not totally sure I got this story right, so don't take it as gospel, but it's something about Perkins getting called to sub for Gonzalves on an Ellington studio date, just to play parts, because Paul was too trashed to make it. Either Perkins took it and was totally freaked out, or else he turned the offer down because he didn't feel worthy. One or the other, and I'm pretty sure it was the latter. But either way, it's not the attitude of a typical "studio musician".

[Larry Kart]

I think I've heard the story, though I don't recall where. IIRC, Perkins did take the gig, and the main thrust of what he had to say was there were NO parts to play from, that everything was a blend of "You know what to do," based on prior communal experience of the band members, and elliptical oral guidance from Ellington as to what was going to be different this time. It was this way of working that left Perkins kind of freaked out. On the other hand, I also recall that Perkins' account of things on this date was challenged pretty authoritatively by someone who had lots of direct experience of how the Ellington band functioned in the studio in that era. Let me see if I can find out more about this.

[Larry Kart]

From a Perkins obit: "He landed occasional film work, including a job with Duke Ellington's band on the soundtrack of Frank Sinatra's now-overlooked 'Assault on a Queen.'"

[Larry Kart]

Here's the passage, from an interview Perkins did with Steve Voce:

"Warner Brothers at that time had their offices in the United Studios and I worked for Reprise. I was involved with the Ellington sessions for that label and even played on one, the soundtrack for Assault On A Queen. Watching Duke score a picture, which he did practically ad lib, was an experience! I was supposed to be up cutting masters and I'd drift away down to where he was because it was so fascinating. They were always searching for me to come back to work!

"Duke had come out with a nucleus of players. I think he had Hodges and Carney with him, four or five of his men, and the rest were studio players. By the time he got through with us it was the Ellington band. I can still remember the influence because the studio players were all used to doing everything by numbers, exactly as we were told. Ellington was so free.

"We asked him how he wanted things played and he said 'Oh don't worry. It'll come together.' And of course it did. I'll never forget it.

"I also played baritone for him once on a show called Happy Times, a television show where they had different big bands every week. I thought 'oh boy, I'm going to get to play those marvelous Harry Carney parts.' Well, the fact is, there were no Harry Carney parts—they were all kept in Harry's head. We were all terribly disappointed at first because we had It Don't Mean A Thing and there was no chart for it. We thought how can we possibly play that with a 17 piece band live on the air without charts?

"But by the time he was through with it, it swung as hard as you could want, and I'll never forget it. He had an instinct for what mattered and a certain amount of sloppiness. if you want to call it that, was beneficial. Many a time I've been to hear the band and it wasn't running on all 16 cylinders until after half an hour or so, but it didn't matter because that spirit was there."

As I recall now, the parts that were challenged, I believe by Dan Morgenstern, was "Well, the fact is, there were no Harry Carney parts—they were all kept in Harry's head," and that there was no chart for "It Don't Mean A Thing." Dan, if indeed it was Dan, said that both of these statements were nonsense.

[Soul Stream]

Great remarks by all and especially Larry Kart. The notion that music changes and forges ahead....that's something all musicians deal with. It's interesting to hear how Perkins felt his playing was marginalized by people like Rollins. Coltrane and Sonny left a lot of guys on the side of the road. It's tough to be immediately outdated. I remember Art Pepper going through the same thing in his book. It's not until history proves to us that these players all had something to say, but I'm sure it's a sinking feeling when you're getting your Prez on and the you hear Way Out West or something....

[fasstrack]

I understand, and hope I didn't over-react

Everything's cool. Hope I didn't over-provoke. Edited May 8, 2006 by fasstrack

[Clunky]

But I sort of played a half-baked imitation of Sonny Rollins without getting into Sonny Rollins, and Dick was really disgusted.... And the album never came out....

One track from this session appears on the Bud Shank/ Bill Perkins- Pacific-( West Coast Classics) CD put out in late 90s. I forget the track's name but it sounds pretty good to my ears. I usually always think,that it's a pity when excellent musicians, like Perkins or Bud Shank look back on their earlier efforts with disdain.

[fasstrack]

Fasstrack -- Of course, it is or can be different for players. But while many who play feel the way you do, others who play don't. It seems to be both a function of what you do and what your temperament is. Some guys can, and really like to, spend a lot of time thinking and talking about all sorts of things that are connected to the music and then still manage to stay in the moment when the moment is upon them; others can't do that or just don't like the feeling of talking about what they and other musicians do at all, let alone listening to other people talk about that. And there are also people who don't play who are deep into the music and don't like how it feels to pore over it verbally either. To-may-to, to-mah-to.

That's exactly right, all of it. Different sensibilities; different stages in a musician's life; different temperaments; different levels of concentration/focus; different breakfast cereal, etc.= different approaches.

[AllenLowe]

well so much for my not posting - I spent some time last night going back to listen to Perkins - it's funny but he's one of those people whose playing just never registered for me - I don't like his tone on the earlier stuff, the later just doesn't convince me, though I can always hear how good a musician he was, I can understand how restless an intellect he seems to have - it's just that he was one of those guys that seemed on the verge of surprising me, but never quite did - oh well, will have to listen a bit more -

on that issue of musicians turned around by changes in the music, with things that they fear they cannot keep up with, well this happened even to Sonny Rollins - I had a very long talk with Jamil Nasser one day and he told me about Sonny's response to Trane, as Jamil had been doing some gigging with Rollins - he basically said that Sonny was completely thrown by Trane's ascendance; previously Sonny had been king of the hill. Jamil felt that this was connected to some self-conscious eccentricities on Sonny's part - the Mohawk and the practicing on the bridge for two examples; Sonny, to his view, was just trying to find his place in the scene. A similar thing was said to me by Paul Bley, who thought that the Our Man in Jazz period was interesting, but not as good as Sonny with a more conventional group (and Bley's tales of Rollins with Coleman Hawkins are quite funny -Sonny basically kept trying to lose Hawk and Hawk kept asking Bley to cue him in) -

I saw this fear of keeping up with the musical changes in Art Pepper, who could not do it convincingly; I think if one listens to Frank Morgan's latter-day playing one can hear him trying to play things like Wayne Shorter tunes and not really knowing how to approach the line and instead substituting (as with Pepper) just pointless flurries of notes; I even thought Jacki McLean succumbed to this on occasion, running fourths in order to try to extend the harmony, instead of working within his own stylistic parameters (though jackie finally adapted well). And when Dave Schildkraut recorded for me in concert in 1978 he was clearly trying to work at Coltrane - whom he told me he believed had been influenced by Dave (something I believe, by the way, based on some other things Dave talked about) -

Edited May 8, 2006 by AllenLowe

[fasstrack]

Sonny...was just trying to find his place in the scene. A similar thing was said to me by Paul Bley, who thought that the Our Man in Jazz period was interesting, but not as good as Sonny with a more conventional group.

My favorite Sonny is his 60s stuff, not that I don't love what preceded it. But you get the best of both worlds on Alfie and E. Broadway Rundown. Also: On Impulse (which he hated, I'm told). He's building on his foundation, stretching out, and you can hear him taking it out more harmonically, deepening his sound, throwing those new influences into the mix. (Hey ma, look at me analysing!!).

I really love He's younger Than You Are; Street Runner with Child; Alfie's Theme, all, of course, from Alfie. It's poignant, vibrant, swinging music. 60s jazz at its best IMO. The music was the best part of that movie (though the soundtrack had much more, obviously. Oliver Nelson wrote his ass off without ever getting in Sonny's way. You sure don't want to do that. The whole cast of players was great and I can hear Phil Woods' lead alto in my head right now).

[AllenLowe]

yes, Alfie is an incredible piece of work - actually the 1960s is my favorite period for Sonny - and I think he reached a peak in those years that he's never equalled since (allright Sangrey let's not start a fight here) - to get back to the theme of this thread, Sonny's work in those days does speak to how an older musician can come to terms with changes in the music in an organic and convincing way -

[fasstrack]

yes, Alfie is an incredible piece of work - actually the 1960s is my favorite period for Sonny - and I think he reached a peak in those years that he's never equalled since (allright Sangrey let's not start a fight here) - to get back to the theme of this thread, Sonny's work in those days does speak to how an older musician can come to terms with changes in the music in an organic and convincing way -

He didn't really 'change', either, to me. He reflected, evolved, and improved.

[paul secor]

To return to Bill Perkins:

A later recording that I find captures much of the lightness/freedom of spirit that I hear on 2 Degees East, is present on Two As One, a 1990 duo session with Frank Strazzeri on Japanese Interplay. He's not playing exactly as he did on the earlier session - that would be nearly impossible and not a good thing, 30 + years down the line - but much of the sound, and even more of the spirit, of 2 Degrees is present on this date. The second half of the CD is especially fine music.

[Allan Songer]

I talked to Bill at length about the 2 degrees session and he told me that what made the date so special is that John Lewis knew EXACTLY what Perk was able to do and that he built the whole session around all of his strengths and avoided exposing any of his weaknesses. Works for me-easily the "coolest" of all the "cool jazz" records--Perk's Easy Living still makes my wife go weak in the knees every time she hears it on the hi-fi--even after 30 years of my spinning it regularly. She loved Bill--she's has two degrees in engineerig and so did Bill (including an MS in electrical engineering from Cal Tech). I think Perk's engineering and math genius had a lot to do with his constant probing musically and inability to ever be satisfied. He was a wonderful man--a real gentleman.

Here's another late Perkins record that's worth tracking down--some really fine soprano work on this one. I really loved Perk on the soprano--in the last years really think he was stronger on the soprano than he was on the tenor, baritone, flute or bass clarinet.

[medjuck]

I saw Sonny in the mid- sixties post Our Man but still under Trane's influence. I liked Our Man but was disappointed in him live. (I think he was accompanied by Grant Green-- is that possible?) Then I saw him a couple of years later right after he returned from a trip to Europe and he seemed to me to be a new super-charged version of his old self. (Though as I remember it that concert got a bad review in Coda.)

[Peter Friedman]

I am a bit late in reading this thread, but feel the need (or just desire) to throw in my thoughts on the various players that have been discussed.

First, I wonder why Al Cohn, one of the three tenor players on the recording THE BROTHERS, was left out of the discussion? Over the long haul, I find Al Cohn to be the most interesting tenor player of the three. Al's

sound deepened over time, but he seemed to keep his basic style in tact. His creativity in his solos improved with greater depth in his playing. Any influence from Rollins was minimal at best , and I don't hear any Coltrane influence at all. I especially love his quartet sessions with Barry Harris for Xanadu, though all of his

later recordings are very good in my view.

Kamuca died way too young. He was a real swinger who never made a poor recording. Leaving aside his alto work on the tribute to Bird album, Richie's sound also deepened over time and his solos took on a heaviness that showed he had been listening to many of the hard boppers. Nonetheless, the Prez influence was still there though slightly modified. I share the view that we NEED CD re-issues of Richie's Concord albums.

I am old enough to have heard Bill Perkins early recordings when they were first released, and to have heard him live with the Kenton Orchestra. Perkins playing with Kenton, Woody Herman, Shorty Rogers Big Band and Terry Gibbs Dream Band thrilled me. His small group work as well as his big band roles in the '50's up to about 1964 led me to consider Perkins one of my very favorite living tenor players. Albums such as , On Stage, Tenors Head On, Just Friends, 2 Degrees East with John Lewis, and his sideman work with Lennie Niehaus, Chet Baker, Bud Shank, and others were strong favorites in my collection alongside the Hard Bop albums by Rollins, Horace Silver, Hank Mobley and many others.

It was a major disappointment to me when Perkins so dramatically changed his style and sound. As has been mentioned by some, his changes led to playing that was unconvincing. As a desciple of Lester Young,

Perkins was in my view a masterful player who combined beautiful sound, fluent ideas and graceful swing. Once he decided to take on Rollins, Trane and perhaps Paul Gonsalves as his inspiration his playing usually sounded clumsy, and dull to these ears. Once in a while he made a recording I could enjoy, but from about 1965 on until his death they were few and far between. I saw Perkins live many times in the last 6 or 7 years of his life and most often found his playing barely tolerable. His tenor playing was to my mind a disaster most of the time and I considered his soprano sax playing just slightly better. I liked him best in his later years on baritone sax.

I know that Bill had many fans who thought highly of him, but I was greatly saddened by what I observed as a marvelous player who made (in my opinion) a series a bad musical decisions that resulted in music that I found very unsatisfying.

Bob Cooper got mentioned in passing. Bob did stick to doing what he did best. His playing throughout his entire career was terrific. He never achieved the recognition he deserved, and perhaps it was in part because he chose to stay with Prez rather than jump on the Trane or Rollins wagon. But he left us with a highly enjoyable set of recordings over a period of more than 40 years.

Edited May 18, 2006 by Peter Friedman

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

wait so is this mail order only? i would enjoy this cd i am sure

i saw perkins w/ shank/perkins/candoli/bill mays/bob magnusson/joelabarbara c. 00 or 01, whenever that cd came out---

perkins i thought his soloing was quite strage, not likehe was messing up, but it was pretty strange....maybe it was messing up i really am not sure, i wish i had a recording so i could listen back but i dont.....

it was good to see this lineup and probably the last true all west caost lineup like that we'll ever see. im happy to have seen that.

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

conte was insane though he was relaly good and then we met him and he was smoking this giant ass cigar and he was like the coolest motherfucker in the room