The D I V O R C E Thread

[patricia]

It frightens me how women can brew for years on this subject and then one day give a guy the boot. The whole time him being clueless as to what's going on. Even though I feel I have a good marriage, I know the hammer could come down on an estrogen whim at any time.

I don't think that it's a matter of women brewing for years and then just suddenly giving their partner the boot.

Quite often the woman puts up with an untenable, to her, situation, hoping that it will change for the better.

Of course she should say what's bothering her.

Many times she isn't sure whether if she does say something, what she says will not be interpreted as PMS, or the estrogen talking and simply dismissed as nagging by her partner.

Many women just don't want to make waves if they aren't prepared to leave.

The leaving doesn't usually happen out of nowhere, although it may seem to.

Also, women and men leave marriages and long-term relationships for different reasons. For example, women will put up with infidelity, horrible intimate relations, even alcoholism before they will leave, if they have children.

That applies to other problems as well, if they think their partner doesn't listen to them.

Even a bad marriage may seem better than deciding to raise kids on your own.

So, they stay.

Their men will actually believe that their wives don't know about long-term infidelity just because they haven't told them.

Believe me, women ALWAYS know about cheating eventually.

They just choose, for whatever reason, to put up with it.

Bad sex by itself is not the cause of a marriage deteriorating.

It's more often a symptom of a general lack of communication.

Women usually don't want to totally shatter whatever calmness is in their marriage either.

So, quite often women will only leave a bad marriage after years, sometimes decades of burying their own unhappiness until they can actually survive on their own.

It's not always the snap decision that it may seem, but one that has been coming for many years.

Just because there are no fights doesn't mean that everything is fine.

To be sure, just hoping for change is not the same thing as actively trying to air out her problems with the relationship.

But, there are many men who just tune their partner out when she attempts to talk to them about feelings and her partner takes from that that her guy isn't interested in really talking to her.

This festers over several years of a marriage that is dying.

Many men don't talk to their partners except about their work, or the kids, or the household workings.

THEY DON'T LISTEN to subtle undercurrents and so the breakup, when it comes, is a total surprise to them.

The sudden end to a long-term relationship is a shock that cannot be healed by simply seeking out another partner to fill the void.

Take time for reflection.

Don't look for a replacement until you know that you are not choosing someone exactly the same as the one who left you.

I have friends who have married the same kind of person over and over, with the same results over and over.

Being on your own is not the worst thing that can happen to you.

Great post, Patty. Also very scary for me, becuase I don't disucss much with my wife. We act more like roommates than soulmates most of the time, but our marriage has also lasted 19 years (plus lived together two years before that.) Who knows how it will all end.

I side with Joe's comments. I am virtually helpless to control life. I can control the little things, but as you age, you realize how helpless we really are.

Well, I'll see your nineteen years and raise you thirty.

I guess the thing is to talk to your partner.

If there are problems, do something about them.

Short term pain for long term gain.

Don't let things slide just because your partner has given up on trying to talk to you about what may seem trivial to you.

If you have a history of dismissing their concerns, if they express them, they just won't try anymore.

My ex would just walk away, thinking that not talking about whatever was bothering me would make it go away by itself.

We never fought about anything, ever.

But, we never seemed to be on the same page.

Now that we have our own lives, we are good friends.

We talk now.

In fact, I actually went back to him briefly, thinking that things would be different.

My being there in the former role brought back the same situation.

So, almost right away I knew that I had made the right decision by leaving.

My ex is a good guy, or I wouldn't have married him in the first place.

But he has a problem with facing personal problems, so just ignores them.

Don't do that.

You can't fix problems if you don't admit they are there.

Edited July 31, 2006 by patricia

[Joe G]

What we need to give up is the feeling that we can control our lives. Better to work at surrendering to the flow of it, like a good improvisation. Seriously.

We can control how we react to situatons as they arrive. We cannot control other people's lives or actions or events that we do not create (some would argue that we help create every event that happens to us, but I'm not one of them). However, we can influence them.

I agree with your statement in principle, but there is an undercurrent of passivism in it that I don't necessarily agree with.

Rather than passivism (which I'm not surprised that you, an extremely outward and activity-oriented person, would shun ), I'm referring more to that quality of openess, receptivity, and listening. You've got to hear the call before you answer it. Going back to the improvisation analogy; this is the receptive, listening mode that we strive to cultivate in order to create music with each other that goes beyond just our individual abilities. The other side to the coin is that we need to have the skills, confidence, and readiness to act on the impulse at the right moment.

And, taking responsibility for your response to what life throws at you everyday is definitely a big part of the equation (i.e., not being a "victim").

Easier said than done, but easier done than not done. If you catch my drift. Just my way of telling Paul to hang in there and keep releasing any fears that he might be having about the future, as they come up.

[Free For All]

Thanks for your support everyone, and regarding your post, Patricia, you made several good points.

I've always been a good listener and I felt we were able to discuss just about anything. I know there were concerns about specific issues and I was trying to make changes that would benefit both of us (see my Health thread). It just became apparent that her feelings about me had changed and my efforts to make some personal changes were appreciated but ultimately ineffectual.

We've been friends for almost thirty years. A couple of attempts to get together failed, mostly because we were ensconced in different cities. When we finally decided to get married I left a full-time teaching gig to move to where she was. Something had to give if we were going to ever become a couple. This seemed the best solution at the time because I am used to being a freelance musician and finding a way to surive by combining playing/writing/adjunct teaching, and she likes the security and structure of the full-time teaching gig. So she was the main bread winner, and I did as much as I could.

When she was offered a teaching job here in Kansas City, I thought I could find enough work to merit the move here. It's been OK but not great. As a musician my work tends to come in waves- a long dry spell usually is followed by a busy period. The teaching job provides more constant security and of course those ever-critical benefits, like health insurance. I now will be without a full-time job and temporarily without health insurance. I plan to apply for teaching jobs, but that season is in the spring, so not much will be available until then. If this had happened a month or two sooner I would have had a shot at getting a job, but for now I'll have to scrape by here in KC. It's depressing to feel like you're moving backwards (like moving from our nice home to a small apartment) but I'm hoping this is just a temporary setback.

I'm frustrated because I don't really feel I know why this has happened. Things weren't perfect, but I felt we were happy and that the marriage was strong. It had the crucial element of trust which is so important for any relationship whether it be a friendship or a marriage. I feel that I have been a very supportive and loyal husband, and have made many sacrifices for the marriage, which I did happily. I can't understand how one's feelings can change so abruptly and completely.

As far as hastily finding a replacement, I am in NO way thinking about that. At this point I have ZERO interest in starting a new relationship, which I realize is a typical feeling for someone going through this. I need to be on my own for a while and re-establish my independence.

Thanks to everyone for sharing your stories, my heart goes out to all of you. This is an issue worth discussing, and I'm glad we're able to discuss it here. I debated for a long time whether or not to air this publicly because it's personal and painful and frankly kind of humiliating, but I think there are many insightful people here who have much to contribute. And it's cheaper than therapy!

[Noj]

I didn't think it possible that a woman of Patricia's quality could possibly not be spoken for. Will wonders never cease?

[Soul Stream]

Resentment is the big elephant in the room in many marriages. Laughter and being able to connect on that level goes a long way in cutting down on the resentment factor imho.

Of course, I'll probably be given the boot tommorrow after all my good advice to ya'll.

[Joe G]

Resentment is the big elephant in the room in many marriages. Laughter and being able to connect on that level goes a long way in cutting down on the resentment factor imho.

Of course, I'll probably be given the boot tommorrow after all my good advice to ya'll.

Hey, you just made me laugh, so rest assured that you won't get the boot from here.

[medjuck]

I've never been divorced but from what I've heard from friends it's tough even if you're the one who wanted it!

So be prepared for some tough times but keep in mind that this too will pass. I don't really have any advice but it sure sounds like you should get out of Kansas.

Best of luck and hang in there.

[Soul Stream]

I think, in general, musicians have a worse track record on marriage than others. It's part of the landscape as we know it. Many times music consumes us on an intimate level, and also...it doesn't pay worth a shit. That's not really a winning combo for lengthy marriages.

[dave9199]

I'm frustrated because I don't really feel I know why this has happened.

Have you asked her why?

[patricia]

I didn't think it possible that a woman of Patricia's quality could possibly not be spoken for. Will wonders never cease?

Jon, as always you are a sweetheart.

I know that you will understand what I'm saying now. You, like me are a solitary artist and we don't give that up easily.

If I gave the impression that my ex was soley to blame for our marriage not working out, it was my fault too.

I didn't see that we are so different that we would never be travelling on the same path, no matter how harmonious we were able to make our lives seem both to our two daughters and to our friends.

I sank myself into my children and my work and let years go by without admitting that there was nothing but a friendship between us.

Lots of people are content with that.

After all, marriage is just your life lived in tandem with your partner's life.

It's not an endless date.

I guess I should have remembered what my late father said about picking a life partner.

It seemed airy-fairy at the time, but I think that it's very true now, having been through the years I have.

He said "Don't marry someone just because it's time and you could live with them. Marry the one you can't live without."

I think that intensity has to be there to begin with, although it will mature over time.

If it was never there, you have nothing to hang on to during the bad times.

Living with somebody else, even someone you love and respect is difficult.

None of us are perfect.

But, if there is no communication, no common interests, therefore no passion, there really is nothing left to save.

Better to part friends.

If there are kids, it's much more difficult.

They really don't know and don't want to know about what went wrong with you as a couple.

They want to know that you aren't divorcing them.

That's the hard part.

So I think that it's always better to admit early, before you have a family that it's not working.

After other people are in the picture, the problems don't go away, but you have to cope in a way that doesn't spread the pain out too much.

I waited until my kids were grown.

But I realize now that there is no good time to leave a marriage.

Maybe not the best decision, but it's what I did.

Edited July 31, 2006 by patricia

[Free For All]

I think, in general, musicians have a worse track record on marriage than others. It's part of the landscape as we know it. Many times music consumes us on an intimate level, and also...it doesn't pay worth a shit. That's not really a winning combo for lengthy marriages.

My wife and I are both musicians (both trombonists as well). She exists mostly in the classical world and I in the jazz world, and this has worked out fine for us. In past relationships music has often assumed ther role of the "mistress" (as Duke said) and caused friction, but in this case that was not a problem. We both maintain fairly busy professional schedules and were mutually supportive.

As far as music not paying well, yeah, that's a problem. When I gave up my job and moved to where she was it seemed the right thing to do, but I think ultimately my dependence on her was a problem for both of us. I mean, I wasn't a lazy freeloader by any means, but the inconsistency of the freelancer's world is hard to deal with sometimes. We talked about it openly though, and it didn't seem like a "deal breaker" at the time. Who knows.

[Free For All]

I'm frustrated because I don't really feel I know why this has happened.

Have you asked her why?

Oh yes! We've discussed it in private and with a therapist. I don't feel I've gotten a satisfactory answer, like either she hasn't shared the real reason or she doesn't know what it is herself. The bulk of what she tells me is very complementary about our marriage, but that her feelings haved changed somewhat inexplicably. Now I know many might suspect an affair, but I know that's not happening. I'm tending to think that there was nothing I could do that would have saved the marriage. It seems like she has reached a point where she wants to be alone, almost like a cycle. Middle-age related issues perhaps? I don't know.

[patricia]

I'm frustrated because I don't really feel I know why this has happened.

Have you asked her why?

Oh yes! We've discussed it in private and with a therapist. I don't feel I've gotten a satisfactory answer, like either she hasn't shared the real reason or she doesn't know what it is herself. The bulk of what she tells me is very complementary about our marriage, but that her feelings haved changed somewhat inexplicably. Now I know many might suspect an affair, but I know that's not happening. I'm tending to think that there was nothing I could do that would have saved the marriage. It seems like she has reached a point where she wants to be alone, almost like a cycle. Middle-age related issues perhaps? I don't know.

If she has already decided to leave you, she may not want to throw all her reasons at you, even in therapy, partly because she doesn't want to hurt you any more than she already has.

If she's already written the marriage off, what is the point of twisting the knife?

You know how when you were a teenager and dating, if a girlfriend wanted out of the relationship she almost always said "It's not you. It's me"?

Maybe you did the same thing if the situation was reversed and you were the one who wanted out.

Most people, particularly spouses or lovers don't want to hurt you if it isn't going to do anything but wreck any kind of cordial relationship you may still have.

I really don't think that your wife doesn't know why she wants to leave.

I would think that she might just want to be civilized about it.

After all, she loved you when she married you.

So, she must think you have many good qualities and doesn't want to bring up things that aren't going to help and may just destroy whatever you may have left.

Divorce doesn't mean that you didn't live that part of your life.

Leaving a marriage is not a simple thing and I can't think of anyone who just arbitrarily up and left for no reason.

Sometimes it's to do with a partner "letting themselves go", both sexes.

Guys will leave a lot earlier because of that than women will.

But, that doesn't mean that putting on fifty or so pounds, letting your personal grooming go all to hell, or just not caring doesn't matter to women.

It does.

Getting too comfortable sometimes sends a message to the other partner that if they say anything they are shallow.

So, they don't say anything.

After all, the rest of the marriage is OK and most don't want to change their life for such a trivial reason.

Lots of men and women in those circumstances will just start an affair, or series of affairs rather than leave the marriage, thinking it's all about bad sex, compounding the problem.

They get a lover and their lives seem to improve, with two partners giving them what they need, a home and a way to get back the magic of just dating.

After all, marriage is a comfortable situation.

Leaving because there is no intimacy is the honest out, but much more difficult and more and more people will go outside the marriage, often for years, rather than fix the problems at home that are the cause of the lack of intimacy.

But, inevitably, the marriage dies anyway, but much later. Better to leave while both people can start again, knowing much more clearly what they want and what they are prepared to do to get it.

A hard lesson, but one that more people than we think have to painfully learn.

Edited July 31, 2006 by patricia

[Free For All]

If she has already decided to leave you, she may not want to throw all her reasons at you, even in therapy, partly because she doesn't want to hurt you any more than she already has.

If she's already written the marriage off, what is the point of twisting the knife?

Patricia, I don't think she can hurt me any more than she already has. I feel I'm entitled to know what's going on. At this point not knowing hurts worse than anything she might say. I'd like some closure.

And thanks for your thoughtful posts.

[dave9199]

If she has already decided to leave you, she may not want to throw all her reasons at you, even in therapy, partly because she doesn't want to hurt you any more than she already has.

If she's already written the marriage off, what is the point of twisting the knife?

The point is not twisting the knife, the point is both sides knowing clearly why this is going on. If both sides aren't clear, one or both will take these issues into their next relationship. Not wanting to make it worse is a moot point. It gets worse if there is any uncertainty among either person.

[Soul Stream]

[As far as music not paying well, yeah, that's a problem. When I gave up my job and moved to where she was it seemed the right thing to do, but I think ultimately my dependence on her was a problem for both of us. I mean, I wasn't a lazy freeloader by any means, but the inconsistency of the freelancer's world is hard to deal with sometimes. We talked about it openly though, and it didn't seem like a "deal breaker" at the time. Who knows.

"Working" musicians almost always have to lean on their spouse in a financial way. I've only seen 2 types of middle-aged 'gigging' musicians....those with spouses that work, and those that live near the povery level. Many times musicians have to hit the road to make a living. But with kids that can become tough to impossible. So you stick around town and take what you can hustle up, watch the kids, clean the house, and play gigs. But that type of financial role reversal is stressful for anyone. Sounds cute at first "Oh, my crazy musician husband!" After 15, 20, 30 years...it maybe ain't so cute. Especially with inflation and gig pay going down basically for most musicians. And, let's face it there IS a lot of laziness involved with many musicians taking advantage of that situation. I'm not saying this implys anyway to you Paul (which I don't think it does). But, music is very tough for many reasons...divorce is one I would say.

[kulu se mama]

Now I know many might suspect an affair, but I know that's not happening.

paul,

i am sorry to hear about your situation.

i hope everything works out for the best.

has your wife recently lost weight or fixed herself up in anyway.

my wife is eerie at how she can predict a divorce.

usually when a wife starts to lose weight there is another man on the side, even if no one expects it.

good luck.

bob

[Free For All]

"Working" musicians almost always have to lean on their spouse in a financial way. I've only seen 2 types of middle-aged 'gigging' musicians....those with spouses that work, and those that live near the povery level. Many times musicians have to hit the road to make a living. But with kids that can become tough to impossible. So you stick around town and take what you can hustle up, watch the kids, clean the house, and play gigs. But that type of financial role reversal is stressful for anyone. Sounds cute at first "Oh, my crazy musician husband!" After 15, 20, 30 years...it maybe ain't so cute. Especially with inflation and gig pay going down basically for most musicians. And, let's face it there IS a lot of laziness involved with many musicians taking advantage of that situation. I'm not saying this implys anyway to you Paul (which I don't think it does). But, music is very tough for many reasons...divorce is one I would say.

If I hadn't left my full time teaching gig to be with her we probably wouldn't have gotten married. I'm fairly certain she wouldn't have done what I did. By her own admission she needed to have that security of the full time job. Of course I would like to have that too. Now I will I guess, hopefully sooner than later.

So maybe we shouldn't have gotten married in the first place. It sure seemed right at the time. We'd been friends for a long time, there was nothing "hasty" about it. I can't decide if I regret getting married- I've learned a lot, but I also feel that all the investment of time and faith in the relationship (and the sacrifices I made) was/were for naught. I know I'm in a real hard place right now.

[Free For All]

Now I know many might suspect an affair, but I know that's not happening.

paul,

i am sorry to hear about your situation.

i hope everything works out for the best.

has your wife recently lost weight or fixed herself up in anyway.

my wife is eerie at how she can predict a divorce.

usually when a wife starts to lose weight there is another man on the side, even if no one expects it.

good luck.

bob

Thanks.

It's funny, our seventh anniversary is in a few weeks. Makes you wonder about that "seven year itch" thing.

Like I said, I really don't think it's another person. I think she just wants to be on her own.

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

wait you and your wife are BOTH trombonists??@Q?!? well i guess my theory about u listening to to much jazz and trombone is put to rest

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

when shelley long cheated on tom hank in the 'money pit' it was wih the european conductor. start with him and invistigate around the other sections of the orchestra

[Joe G]

So maybe we shouldn't have gotten married in the first place. It sure seemed right at the time. We'd been friends for a long time, there was nothing "hasty" about it. I can't decide if I regret getting married- I've learned a lot, but I also feel that all the investment of time and faith in the relationship (and the sacrifices I made) was/were for naught. I know I'm in a real hard place right now.

Well, you're right in the thick of it now; the emotions are too strong to even begin to see those questions with any clarity.

And I wanted to make it clear that that (the long view) is what I was addressing in my posts with my talk of what I gained from my experiences, which again are totally different from yours. Didn't want any misunderstanding of my intent, which was just to share, not to prescribe.

[catesta]

I've been divorced longer than I was married.

She wasn't for me. I mean she had the look and was well liked, but that's about as far as it goes. She came from a real twisted background with a fucked up set of priorities.

Her father was a classless piece of shit, I had to pay for his hotel room the night of our wedding (a weddig I paid for, not him) and to thank me he left his tuxedo balled up in trash bag for us to return for him. Her sisters were always in some kind of competition to see who could out do the other with jewelry, cars, and whatever. None of them had a pot to piss in.

Our marriage came to an end while vacationing with friends in San Francisco. At dinner we had the waiter take a picture of the group at the table. Sometimes when I'm being photographed I have the tendency to raise my chin up, a thing she did not like. She said "put your chin down", I said "quit breaking my balls and let the guy take the picture". The next morning she took an early flight home and when I returned home a couple of days later she had packed up almost the entire house.

To keep from rambling on, I'll speed up to the end. Since I refused to kiss her ass she wanted out of the marriage. Only she didn't really want out of the marriage she just wanted me to kiss her ass. She played that fucking game right up until the very end when we signed the divorce papers.

What a fuckin' mess.

She has cost me I don't how much money while we were married and since the divorce it's probably even more. Not that we had a messy divorce, it was actually pretty painless. I guess in a way I felt guilty and obligated to help. Deep down that love is still there, you know?

Although, I can get really pissed about the situation, I'm done with it.

In the end I'm way better off without her. And, yes there was some payback to the father-in-law.

So, I guess what I'm trying to say is, if it ain't meant to be, it ain't meant to be. You'll get along just fine after the hurt stops. And yes a change of environment is a good thing, even if it's just moving across town.

Treat yourself to a new suit from the Men's Warehouse.

Good luck.

Edited July 31, 2006 by catesta

[Dmitry]

In the end I'm way better off without her. And, yes there was some payback to the father-in-law.

Let me guess - you let your chihuahua go chipmunk on[in?] his ass?!

[catesta]

In the end I'm way better off without her. And, yes there was some payback to the father-in-law.

Let me guess - you let your chihuahua go chipmunk on[in?] his ass?!

hehe

Close.